Food for Thought...

[Team GFRP]

After hearing pros vs. cons of all the speed control issues we have today... What is the opinion of going to a spec speed controller? I would choose the Novak Havoc Sport for a few different reasons. 1- They already supply the current motors and would probably put together package pricing for the pair. 2- They are reliable, non programmable, and CHEAP!

Here is the link to the speed controller...http://www.shopatron.com/products/productdetail/Havoc+2S+Sport+Brushless/Brush+ESC/part_number=1732/135.0.1.1.5995.4847.0.0.0?


Flame Away!:D

[Dan D]

After hearing pros vs. cons of all the speed control issues we have today... What is the opinion of going to a spec speed controller? I would choose the Novak Havoc Sport for a few different reasons. 1- They already supply the current motors and would probably put together package pricing for the pair. 2- They are reliable, non programmable, and CHEAP!

Here is the link to the speed controller...http://www.shopatron.com/products/productdetail/Havoc+2S+Sport+Brushless/Brush+ESC/part_number=1732/135.0.1.1.5995.4847.0.0.0?


Flame Away!:D

now your talkin :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Team GFRP]

I have also heard that a lot of tracks have switched from the 13.5 to the 17.5 motors to try to slow the cars down.

17.5 motor = $90
Havoc Speed control = $80

Plus you don't have to worry about the next software release making the 17.5 run like the 8.5 so now you need 21.5...

[panelbeater]

After hearing pros vs. cons of all the speed control issues we have today... What is the opinion of going to a spec speed controller? I would choose the Novak Havoc Sport for a few different reasons. 1- They already supply the current motors and would probably put together package pricing for the pair. 2- They are reliable, non programmable, and CHEAP!

Here is the link to the speed controller...http://www.shopatron.com/products/productdetail/Havoc+2S+Sport+Brushless/Brush+ESC/part_number=1732/135.0.1.1.5995.4847.0.0.0?


Flame Away!:D

Well I kind of agree with this but I wish something could have been done about a year ago before everyone went out and got the Tekins etc. I was a diehard Novak GTB user but I got tired of having my but kicked so I caved in and got the newer software. My 17.5 latemodel is as fast as it was with the GTB and a 7.5 now. I guess there has to be a limit but what do you do with all the newer stuff you have bought.

[Team GFRP]

I guess there has to be a limit but what do you do with all the newer stuff you have bought.


Have it for mod or sell it to pay for the new speedo. This would mainly be a long term benefit. Which is the whole idea behind the motor and battery being spec.... Right?

[RCRACR20]

Since Novak has a new ESC coming out, how about the GTB? I am sure that since its planned to be discontinued, that Novak cant be talked into keeping it around, at a lesser price. Currently they are marked at $142 at tower. Although more expensive than the Havoc, it is a FAR better ESC, and is still does not have dynamic timing or any turbo boost, yet is less prone to meltdowns and thermal shutdowns.

The Havoc Pro would also be a better alternative at $119, about $100 cheaper than the Tekins and LRP's.


I only state this because Ive seen about 20 of those Havoc 2S ESC's melt down in the past 6 months or so. Also, the thermal shutdown seems to have a considerably lower shutdown temp. than the GTB.


Just a couple thoughts.

[Team GFRP]

Since Novak has a new ESC coming out, how about the GTB? I am sure that since its planned to be discontinued, that Novak cant be talked into keeping it around, at a lesser price. Currently they are marked at $142 at tower. Although more expensive than the Havoc, it is a FAR better ESC, and is still does not have dynamic timing or any turbo boost, yet is less prone to meltdowns and thermal shutdowns.

The Havoc Pro would also be a better alternative at $119, about $100 cheaper than the Tekins and LRP's.


I only state this because Ive seen about 20 of those Havoc 2S ESC's melt down in the past 6 months or so. Also, the thermal shutdown seems to have a considerably lower shutdown temp. than the GTB.



Just a couple thoughts.


I'm game with that. I didn't realize they had issues with meltdowns. Anything that comes from Novak and is non programmable... Sounds great to me.


No, I have no affiliation with Novak.

[curtisp]

No, I have no affiliation with Novak.

Yeah right! What's your cut on this? ;)

Just kidding.

I have Tekins in my cars...but...I'd run a spec esc in a spec class. I can see this as a good thing...especially at the USOW or other big races. Last year there was a scramble for the Mamba Max Pro at the Open Wheel. A spec motor/battery/esc combo would tighten up the field and would slow the spec class down a little so that there was a little more difference from Spec (or stock...whatever you want to call it) and Mod.

Sounds like something worth looking into.

[AscotConversion]

ROAR has a list of speedos with programs for a zero advance lockout...
http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/ROAR_Sportsman_Control_ESC_List.pdf

That would be one way of doing it, though the totally non programmable speedos are simpler to tech and produce less worries.

[FULLT1LT]

ROAR has a list of speedos with programs for a zero advance lockout...
http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/ROAR_Sportsman_Control_ESC_List.pdf

That would be one way of doing it, though the totally non programmable speedos are simpler to tech and produce less worries.

I posted the same link in the maryville thread with no response,I think this is the easiest and most cost effective solution out there and will bring the competition back to a more level playing field and will also stop all the motors burning up from too much advance and boost.If you take all the timing out of the 13.5 the class slows down enough for average racers to be more competitive.As far as tech,instead of looking to see which esc they have all you have to do is see if the light is blinking right,takes the same amount of time.By doing this no one has to buy new stuff,motors or esc,and I guarantee just about everyone will be happy with the outcome.These are just my opinions.Flame on!!!:ha:

[padale70]

After hearing pros vs. cons of all the speed control issues we have today... What is the opinion of going to a spec speed controller? I would choose the Novak Havoc Sport for a few different reasons. 1- They already supply the current motors and would probably put together package pricing for the pair. 2- They are reliable, non programmable, and CHEAP!

Here is the link to the speed controller...http://www.shopatron.com/products/productdetail/Havoc+2S+Sport+Brushless/Brush+ESC/part_number=1732/135.0.1.1.5995.4847.0.0.0?


Flame Away!:D



I love this idea i would love to run a electric class as a second class but with the speedo wars and new software updates and hotwires and links it is just to krazy but with something like this it would be enjoyable plus i think it would make things a little more competetive :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Team GFRP]

ROAR has a list of speedos with programs for a zero advance lockout...
http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/ROAR_Sportsman_Control_ESC_List.pdf




That is ok but I think it would be a PITA to tech everything all the time. Pretty easy to look in and see a GTB or a Havoc and call it good.

[FULLT1LT]

That is ok but I think it would be a PITA to tech everything all the time. Pretty easy to look in and see a GTB or a Havoc and call it good.


So the tech guy couldnt print out the sheet and have it laying on the table????? I'd say having the tech guy do 5 seconds per car more rather then tell people they have to buy a certain esc would fly a lot better but I guess I'm pissing up a rope as usual.I know I would rather spend my money on PARTS or something else I need then have to replace 1 of the 5 tekins I own for an obselete esc that is probably going to go out of production when my tekin will still be good for a long time to come.I mean really is it that hard to look through the side window to look at an esc????If you are going to look at the esc anyway why not see if it is blinking????

[padale70]

[quote=FULLT1LT;417591]So the tech guy couldnt print out the sheet and have it laying on the table????? I'd say having the tech guy do 5 seconds per car more rather then tell people they have to buy a certain esc would fly a lot better but I guess I'm pissing up a rope as usual.I know I would rather spend my money on PARTS or something else I need then have to replace 1 of the 5 tekins I own for an obselete esc that is probably going to go out of production when my tekin will still be good for a long time to come.I mean really is it that hard to look through the side window to look at an esc????If you are going to look at the esc anyway why not see if it is blinking????[/q


so you would not be willing to sell one of your 5 tekins(which will still be perfect for mod class racing) and pay 90 0r a 100 bucks for the new "spec" speed control and, still probably have some cash to buy PARTS?:confused:

[FULLT1LT]

[quote=FULLT1LT;417591]So the tech guy couldnt print out the sheet and have it laying on the table????? I'd say having the tech guy do 5 seconds per car more rather then tell people they have to buy a certain esc would fly a lot better but I guess I'm pissing up a rope as usual.I know I would rather spend my money on PARTS or something else I need then have to replace 1 of the 5 tekins I own for an obselete esc that is probably going to go out of production when my tekin will still be good for a long time to come.I mean really is it that hard to look through the side window to look at an esc????If you are going to look at the esc anyway why not see if it is blinking????[/q


so you would not be willing to sell one of your 5 tekins(which will still be perfect for mod class racing) and pay 90 0r a 100 bucks for the new "spec" speed control and, still probably have some cash to buy PARTS?:confused:


Why should I have to sell anything at a lower cost then what I paid????Why cant I run what brand I want too??What about the sponsored drivers???The solution is right there in black and white why is that so hard to understand???

[padale70]

[quote=padale70;417592]


Why should I have to sell anything at a lower cost then what I paid????Why cant I run what brand I want too??What about the sponsored drivers???The solution is right there in black and white why is that so hard to understand???


Is that not the point of spec racing to run what the rules tell you too not what you want to?????? and there will still be mod classes for you to run whatever you want too

[Team GFRP]

So the tech guy couldnt print out the sheet and have it laying on the table????? I'd say having the tech guy do 5 seconds per car more rather then tell people they have to buy a certain esc would fly a lot better but I guess I'm pissing up a rope as usual.I know I would rather spend my money on PARTS or something else I need then have to replace 1 of the 5 tekins I own for an obselete esc that is probably going to go out of production when my tekin will still be good for a long time to come.I mean really is it that hard to look through the side window to look at an esc????If you are going to look at the esc anyway why not see if it is blinking????


looking into a sprint car isn't that easy. I know if they wanted to see mine they would have to take the cage off to tech it. I agree that buying a new speed control would suck to a point. Look at it this way though... In 3 years when everyone has purchased a Novak, Tekin, Mamba, LRP and which ever company had the best speed control or software prior to a big race how much money would you have saved if there was a spec speed control? I know 2 years ago at the OW I had to borrow a Tekin because they had the 189 software and it was faster. Last year, how many people bought a Mamba MP within a week of the OW? I just think that the whole purpose of a spec motor and battery was to save the racers from spending money on the latest and greatest... A speed control would fit in quite nice, I think.

You say you would rather buy parts or something else. I do to, remember I have a company that makes PARTS. The buy one speed control and move on for a while would be better for all the current chassis companies in this hobby. Last I checked CW, HD, Putnam, JRC, Dynotech, BMS, and T2C don't offer a speed control of their own...

[Team GFRP]

Why should I have to sell anything at a lower cost then what I paid????


Keep it and run it in mod.



Why cant I run what brand I want too??

You can in Mod.


What about the sponsored drivers???

They should be in Mod.


The solution is right there in black and white why is that so hard to understand???


Not hard to understand but too time consuming to tech.

[FULLT1LT]

looking into a sprint car isn't that easy. I know if they wanted to see mine they would have to take the cage off to tech it. I agree that buying a new speed control would suck to a point. Look at it this way though... In 3 years when everyone has purchased a Novak, Tekin, Mamba, LRP and which ever company had the best speed control or software prior to a big race how much money would you have saved if there was a spec speed control? I know 2 years ago at the OW I had to borrow a Tekin because they had the 189 software and it was faster. Last year, how many people bought a Mamba MP within a week of the OW? I just think that the whole purpose of a spec motor and battery was to save the racers from spending money on the latest and greatest... A speed control would fit in quite nice, I think.

You say you would rather buy parts or something else. I do to, remember I have a company that makes PARTS. The buy one speed control and move on for a while would be better for all the current chassis companies in this hobby. Last I checked CW, HD, Putnam, JRC, Dynotech, BMS, and T2C don't offer a speed control of their own...


I agree with you dustin to a certain extent and thats why I said parts:D but there are a lot of companies out there that produce escs that we use lrp,tekin,novak,speed passion etc.Some of them support the do community some dont.What I'm saying is here is an extremely cost effective solution that will please many people out here that run all types of equipment and it will re-level the playing field somewhat all with a 5 second tech check.I never played into the esc of the week game I just waited for tekin to come out with another update.I still have the first tekin I bought for the usowc and it runs fine,I and I'm sure many others out there would prefer to continue running products they are familiar with and comfortable running rather than buy a spec esc when this solves ALL the issues that the advance and boost has caused.

[FULLT1LT]

Why should I have to sell anything at a lower cost then what I paid????


Keep it and run it in mod.



Why cant I run what brand I want too??

You can in Mod.


What about the sponsored drivers???

They should be in Mod.


The solution is right there in black and white why is that so hard to understand???


Not hard to understand but too time consuming to tech.

This is where I agree to disagree dustin

[Team GFRP]

Brad,

I see your point. I still have the Tekins that I bought a week after the 08 OW. They all run great. BUT, since then I bought a MMP last year for the OW and I didn't even run a spec class. I did so in case one of my guys was close but getting out speed controlled. I also know that the local tracks that I race at they don't tech on a completely regular basis. So to ask all the local tracks to have a sheet that is updated with all the specs of the speed controls and then have them read thru each time to match up the sequence of lights is a bit far fetched. On the flip side having the racers at the track police themselves by making sure everyone is running the same speed control seems like a much more realistic option.


I'm looking at the long term gain not the short term.

[FULLT1LT]

Brad,

I see your point. I still have the Tekins that I bought a week after the 08 OW. They all run great. BUT, since then I bought a MMP last year for the OW and I didn't even run a spec class. I did so in case one of my guys was close but getting out speed controlled. I also know that the local tracks that I race at they don't tech on a completely regular basis. So to ask all the local tracks to have a sheet that is updated with all the specs of the speed controls and then have them read thru each time to match up the sequence of lights is a bit far fetched. On the flip side having the racers at the track police themselves by making sure everyone is running the same speed control seems like a much more realistic option.


I'm looking at the long term gain not the short term.


With the loss of short term racers,there will be no long term gain.I have said my piece,you guys battle it out,just makes it that much easier to go back to big cars for me.I'm spending about 4 hoosier tires a month----usually more as it is and I wont be back for the next go around,I already had to buy all new electronics twice since I started back in this hobby,I'm not doing it again.

[TQ Cells]

Brad,

I see your point. I still have the Tekins that I bought a week after the 08 OW. They all run great. BUT, since then I bought a MMP last year for the OW and I didn't even run a spec class. I did so in case one of my guys was close but getting out speed controlled. I also know that the local tracks that I race at they don't tech on a completely regular basis. So to ask all the local tracks to have a sheet that is updated with all the specs of the speed controls and then have them read thru each time to match up the sequence of lights is a bit far fetched. On the flip side having the racers at the track police themselves by making sure everyone is running the same speed control seems like a much more realistic option.


I'm looking at the long term gain not the short term.


For the record ... the SPEC Tekin setup (included in version 208 ... soon to be released/currently under final testing) is real easy to tech ... the middle led flashes rapidly ... so real easy to know if the Tekin is setup in SPEC or not ...

IMHO speedos in 13.5 classes all esc's should be requested to be set in SPEC mode ... GTB, Tekin 208/Spec, etc. ...

Steve.
team Tekin

[curtisp]

For the record ... the SPEC Tekin setup (included in version 208 ... soon to be released/currently under final testing) is real easy to tech ... the middle led flashes rapidly ... so real easy to know if the Tekin is setup in SPEC or not ...

IMHO speedos in 13.5 classes all esc's should be requested to be set in SPEC mode ... GTB, Tekin 208/Spec, etc. ...

Steve.
team Tekin

That's cool...didn't know that they were working on that. That would be a good idea...and would cut down on cost...use what you have...no need to buy new...then when you go to a track without the spec rule you can just change the settings. :thumbsup:

[siggy99x]

Mamba Max Pro has the same deal so makes it pretty simple

[padale70]

i understand everyone's point in the fact that most already have a tekin or mamba ESC and, maybe that could work to usher in a complete spec package but i have also read a lot of other post on here about getting new people involved in this great hobby and, i am still a newbie myself i have been doning this for about a year i would love to get in elec.as a matter of fact i bought a brand new GBX kit for 325 and ended up selling it back to the guy i bought it from because i didnt want to get in to the speedo war and i feel that spec racing should be just that spec, everything not just motor and batt amd as a new guy coming in after spend the cash to buy a kit i would rather spend 80 to 100 on a speedo than 150 to 225


Just my 2 cents

[brhodes]

What happens when one brand is found to be better in "spec" mode than the rest? Just because you take away the dynamic timing feature doesn't mean that all brands will be equal. Then everybody has to run out and buy that esc to be competitive which is where we are now. I am all for one brand spec esc. In my opinion the less variables the better when it comes to motor/batt/esc.

[Team GFRP]

What happens when one brand is found to be better in "spec" mode than the rest? Just because you take away the dynamic timing feature doesn't mean that all brands will be equal. Then everybody has to run out and buy that esc to be competitive which is where we are now. I am all for one brand spec esc. In my opinion the less variables the better when it comes to motor/batt/esc.


Thanks,

I was just getting ready to post that. I know before we had all the dynamic tuning, even back in the brushed days we all bought new speedos due to new "better" ones came out...

[BigT]

This Discussion has come up often here as of late..

1 Question is the POWERS THAT BE gonna settle it or will we beat a dead horse again in 6 months......


The Rules that we follow are a Guideline and its up to the tracks to fine tune them for their weekly races. This was said in the discussion when the WCIS approved there rules for this seasons series.

This is my 10 cents and I'm tired of it..... SORRY !!

[terry14]

i like the idea of a spec speed control. relying on a program is like running motors that are unmarked in any way. just makes things easier with less possibility of problems, and accusations. since money IS NOT an issue i think it would work. :thumbsup:

[irocz69]

Why should I have to sell anything at a lower cost then what I paid????


Keep it and run it in mod.



Why cant I run what brand I want too??

You can in Mod.


What about the sponsored drivers???

They should be in Mod.


The solution is right there in black and white why is that so hard to understand???


Not hard to understand but too time consuming to tech.

Ok, first of all, this is not an attack on Dustin, because some of the ideas he & several others have are worth looking into. BUT, I dont think running or getting into Mod is the answer for some drivers either. Drivers have been sponcered by ESC compaines weather they ran stock or mod, so the statement made that sponcered drivers shouldn't run stock is wrong.

I believe no matter what you do, you will always have a problem w/drivers going faster than others. There are so many variables in Spec racing that even if u make everyone run a Spec ESC , the ones that are better drivers & setup guys will still rise to the top & be faster than others. I have had my a$$ handed to me by some of the best in the hobby & also have beaten some of the best & believe this is why most racers get into this hobby. For the competition. Back in the day, Trinity had a Spec truck class & where is that class now? Just some food for thought!

Yes, I do agree that 13.5 racing is VERY FAST & in some cases, like Rob Cutman stated in another thread, faster than mod.( I also was running in the same practice he was & passing Mod Sprints)., but im not sure w/everyone having there current equipment for 13.5, that there is an easy solution to what many think is a problem. No matter what class your running, your ALWAYS looking to go faster, so im not sure limiting it to any 1 ESC brand is the answer.

The 13.5 class is the BIGGEST class going in the country & this is due, in part, because of the guidelines set by DODC & because of this, it has brought back electric racing. Im not saying something doesn't need to be looked @ in the class, but technology is forever changing. Personally I run both the Tekin & Mamba & w/the updates both have provided (FREE) I haven't seen much difference, but both companies have made it VERY affordable for us to keep racing, instead of buying a new ESC every 6months.

Like someone stated earlier, we keep bringing this up on DO time after time to no avail. I think when Rob & his band of merry men come up w/a better idea, then we all will know whats up. Remember, each track in your area has the option to run whatever rules they want, but I believe when it comes down to a National event, it should be no holds barred, wheather your running a Spec or Open class the cream of the crop, will Always rise to the top! Also remember, not only is the 13.5 the biggest, but it is also the most competitive class I have seen in many years !

This is my 2cents worth :D

GO FAST TURN LEFT ! Keith S.

[Team GFRP]

OK

So I ask everyone that is running the DODC 13.5 class these questions:

Do you like only having 1 motor to choose from?

Do you like only having 1 battery to choose from?

How many motors have you purchased in the past 2 years?

How many batteries have you purchased in the past 2 years?

Is the number of batteries and motors you have purchased less then what it would have been if you had been running open motor and battery rules?

[04Xterra]

I believe no matter what you do, you will always have a problem w/drivers going faster than others. There are so many variables in Spec racing that even if u make everyone run a Spec ESC , the ones that are better drivers & setup guys will still rise to the top & be faster than others. I have had my a$$ handed to me by some of the best in the hobby & also have beaten some of the best & believe this is why most racers get into this hobby. For the competition. Back in the day, Trinity had a Spec truck class & where is that class now? Just some food for thought!.

I would rather be beaten by someone who was a better driver/setup guy than be beaten by someone that had the latest and greatest in software.


Like someone stated earlier, we keep bringing this up on DO time after time to no avail. I think when Rob & his band of merry men come up w/a better idea, then we all will know whats up.

The point of bringing issues up is to let the powers that be hear and understand the racers' concerns and ideas.

Personally I think a completely spec class should be given a chance at one of the big races in the near future as an exibition class. I think it would answer a few questions, and most likely raise a few more. It's all about learning and growing.

[Crash#15]

So I ask everyone that is running the DODC 13.5 class these questions:

Do you like only having 1 motor to choose from?
No, but it has its positives, everyone isn't buying the lastest and greatest every time something comes out, (cost savings), and everyone has the same equipment (more level playing field.) Pros out weigh the cons.

Do you like only having 1 battery to choose from?
No, again see above

How many motors have you purchased in the past 2 years?
spec motors only 1

How many batteries have you purchased in the past 2 years?
spec batts only 2

Is the number of batteries and motors you have purchased less then what it would have been if you had been running open motor and battery rules?
Quite a bit less thats where the cost savings comes in, unless u run ur equipment to point of failure.

[ksj44]

The spec speed control idea is a great idea worth looking at. I don't run 13.5 anymore but I do run 6.5 sprint on the PA tour and I hate to say it but the 6.5 class is turning into a speedo war too. Anytime you put a limit on the motor size instantly the speedo becomes the main way of increasing power.

It's pretty simple look at the esc as being a carborator or fuel injection system.... it controls the amount of fuel that goes to the engine.

The motor winds are the cubic inches of the engine. The bigger the cubic inch (lower the wind) the more potential to make power.

And the battery is the fuel. The higher the C rating of the battery the higher the octane of the fuel.

If you limit the speed control its like putting a restrictor plate on the engine... only so many of those cubic inches of the engine can be used effectively because it will only flow so much fuel. The motor can only wind as fast and only use as many amps as the speed control can flow. That is why I think this needs to be looked at as a valid way of evening up the playing field and reducing cost to the racers....especially the new ones. You shouldn't have to be a computer programmer to be competitive. It's ruining our hobby :thumbsdown:

Keith Jones

[Mason]

People will spend money on whatever they perceive will give them an advantage. If its spec they will still spend to find the better piece(s).

ROAR Sportsman may be the best way to handle 17.5. It gives the newer folks a chance to learn how to handle the cars and doesn't force people to buy new speedos just to move up, or down for the driver who realizes they need to go there.

I don't see 13.5 changing in regards to speedos.

[padale70]

[quote=04Xterra;417781]I would rather be beaten by someone who was a better driver/setup guy than be beaten by someone that had the latest and greatest in software.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Anytime72]

Let's be honest. How many people are really getting beat by software? For the few that get a chance to try it out before the public are they that much faster. Right now Tekin and Mamba are pretty close. Little tweaks here and there to get them perfect but huge software gains. Knock the motors back to a 17.5 or find a 13.5 with a non adjustable zero degree timing and that could help. There is nothing spec about a class that runs just as fast in 4 min. as the a faster class like Mod. Even if you put the stock back in spec racing the same guys will find there way back to the top.

[Team GFRP]

This has nothing to do with trying to get new people to win races. It has to do with long term cost savings. Just like the DODC motor and batteries have done. Tell a new guy he can buy a speed controller, motor, and battery and race for over a year on the same equipment as everyone else and he will be more happy. Tell a new guy buy a MMP, then Tekin comes up with a software update. So new guy has to buy a Tekin. Then Novak comes out with their programmable speedo and it is faster. So the new guy now has to buy a Novak......... Need I keep going?


I very rarely run a spec type class since I'm not allowed to at the OW and most of the tracks around here run mod. It would be nice to know if I bought a "spec" speed controller I wouldn't have to worry about getting the latest software for my speed controller that I may have to buy.

I think it is fair to say that the DODC motor and battery rule has helped overal car counts and saved people money. If this is the case why wouldn't it work with a speed controller too? I don't own a Novak speed controller either. So I to would need to buy one. I'm ok with that.

[FULLT1LT]

http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/ROAR_Sportsman_Control_ESC_List.pdf



dustin can you please explain to me why this isn't an option???

[TQ Cells]

Thanks,

I was just getting ready to post that. I know before we had all the dynamic tuning, even back in the brushed days we all bought new speedos due to new "better" ones came out...


Let me correct you on this ... since brushless is here ... there have been "better" speedos that would come out (call it flavor of the month) and racers would jump from 1 boat to the next ... but in fact they were only better speedos based on a newer softwares that improved the timing algorythm (example, LRP timing profiles, etc.,). All speedo in SPEC mode have 0 software induced timing and all speedos are performing extremely close to each other. A Tekin in SPEC isn't any faster than a good ole GBX ... well, maybe a better investment since you can take it to any other class by changing the software, ... but you get my point.

Steve.

[TQ Cells]

http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/ROAR_Sportsman_Control_ESC_List.pdf



dustin can you please explain to me why this isn't an option???

Voila!

Steve.

[Team GFRP]

All of the spec modes are based on offroad or onroad telemetry. Therefore there will be one that outperforms the other.

I have already explained the difficulties in teching all the different speed controls on a local level. At a big race ie. OW, Freeze, and CBJ I would say those lists would be fine. If we have the abilities to reprogram speed controllers now, who is to say someone can't reprogram the "spec" mode?

[brhodes]

Let me correct you on this ... since brushless is here ... there have been "better" speedos that would come out (call it flavor of the month) and racers would jump from 1 boat to the next ... but in fact they were only better speedos based on a newer softwares that improved the timing algorythm (example, LRP timing profiles, etc.,). All speedo in SPEC mode have 0 software induced timing and all speedos are performing extremely close to each other. A Tekin in SPEC isn't any faster than a good ole GBX ... well, maybe a better investment since you can take it to any other class by changing the software, ... but you get my point.

Steve.

The key to your statement is 0 software induced timing. Then we go back to days before the programmable Tekin where the LRP had an advantage over the GTB due to timing built into the esc. Let's face it. If you allow 5 diff speedos there is the possibility of one brand being better than the rest. I can't understand how most can see the benefit of the dodc allowing only one option for motor and batt but can't see the same benefit on the esc side.

Other companies make 13.5 motors and 3200 28c batts but I sure don't wanna see other options available.

Just my opinion.

[FULLT1LT]

All of the spec modes are based on offroad or onroad telemetry. Therefore there will be one that outperforms the other.

I have already explained the difficulties in teching all the different speed controls on a local level. At a big race ie. OW, Freeze, and CBJ I would say those lists would be fine. If we have the abilities to reprogram speed controllers now, who is to say someone can't reprogram the "spec" mode?

I guess I just dont understand how hard it is look at a blinking light!

[Anytime72]

This has nothing to do with trying to get new people to win races

I never said it would

It has to do with long term cost savings. Just like the DODC motor and batteries have done. Has it really saved money? or do guys just buy more motors and batteries with the same label on it.

I really like the DODC motor and battery idea. Too bad there can't be a motor and battery that is made just for the DODC.

Tell a new guy buy a MMP, then Tekin comes up with a software update. So new guy has to buy a Tekin. Then Novak comes out with their programmable speedo and it is faster. So the new guy now has to buy a Novak......... Need I keep going

Forget that. Since the year and a half back into racing dirt you can barely get people to rebuild their shock and change the oil in them. Clean there hinge pins and replace worn out parts. I hear guys say they haven't rebuilt there shocks in 6 months.

Dustin, I'm not picking on you by any means. pan car guys have this same discussion every year. It get old quick.

[Team GFRP]

I really like the DODC motor and battery idea. Too bad there can't be a motor and battery that is made just for the DODC.

Forget that. Since the year and a half back into racing dirt you can barely get people to rebuild their shock and change the oil in them. Clean there hinge pins and replace worn out parts. I hear guys say they haven't rebuilt there shocks in 6 months.


Give it time and SMC will only be producing the 3200 28c for the DODC. Same for Novak and the velocity motor.


I agree there but they will still go out and buy a new speed controller because that is why they think they are getting beat.

The only people on here that are saying they are against the idea are the ones that are either sponsored or would buy the next best thing. This is not supposed to help those guys it's supposed to help the guy that is unable to spend the money on the new speed control of the month.

[Team GFRP]

I guess I just dont understand how hard it is look at a blinking light!


It's not about teching it's about TRUE EQUALITY!:D

[Mason]

spec the car. sorry gfrp, we're going with another brand. :(

[Team GFRP]

spec the car. sorry gfrp, we're going with another brand. :(


Sounds good, enjoy it.;)

[FULLT1LT]

It's not about teching it's about TRUE EQUALITY!:D

now which is it??? you said earlier it would be a pita to tech on the local level, my point is if they are teching 13.5 correctly,they have to measure batt voltage right??? when they plug the batt back in couldnt they look too see if the light is blinking correctly??I get the whole true equality thing but this isnt nascar and there is never true equality in ANY form of racing.The only way for any class to be a true spec class is to spec every part on the car hence the COT.Now nascar is backing off that whole mess and going back to what the fans want.In this hobby its about the racers.

[Team GFRP]

now which is it??? you said earlier it would be a pita to tech on the local level, my point is if they are teching 13.5 correctly,they have to measure batt voltage right??? when they plug the batt back in couldnt they look too see if the light is blinking correctly??I get the whole true equality thing but this isnt nascar and there is never true equality in ANY form of racing.The only way for any class to be a true spec class is to spec every part on the car hence the COT.Now nascar is backing off that whole mess and going back to what the fans want.In this hobby its about the racers.


Teching would be a PITA. I mainly brought this whole topic up because I have heard quite a few racers over the last year complain about the speed controllers and what it is doing to the racing. It is just more simple and more cost effective to spec a speed controller.

[pascooter]

Since most people already have a mamba or a tekin, put a time limit on the software.
It must be available to the public for 3 or 6 months before it can be used in DODC racing. That way if someone upgrades their software, the other company has time to catch up and offer their improved software. Then no one is having to buy new escs and the software is free.

[Doug D]

Dustin - This has all been brought up a while ago, but with not action. Personally, I'd like to see a DODC version come out that supports the DODC concept. Simple locked brushless esc with soldering posts for wires. The spec speedo should have been put in place a long time ago. Maybe the DODC could have special intro pricing of this new spec speedo at the USOWCs like they did initially with the lipo batts and motors in 08'......hmmmmmmm what do ya say Rob???? ;)

[Anytime72]

If the DODC can get an idea of baseline programs for each brand then why not show up to the track or event and as you get teched get your speedo flashed and the tagged. If the tag, seal or what ever looks tampered with then it gets checked and DQ'd if found illegal. I'm sure now that Tekin, Castle claim to have a spec mode along with whatever other company would submit a speedo and program somebody could figure out how to get them to play nice together.

[curtisp]

Maybe someone from Checkered Flag Raceway (http://www.checkeredflagrcraceway.com/index.html) can chime in on this topic and let us know how there spec class is working. Checkered Flag started a spec class this year using a spec motor/esc and also a spec tire.

[irocz69]

OK

So I ask everyone that is running the DODC 13.5 class these questions:

Do you like only having 1 motor to choose from?

Do you like only having 1 battery to choose from?

How many motors have you purchased in the past 2 years?

How many batteries have you purchased in the past 2 years?

Is the number of batteries and motors you have purchased less then what it would have been if you had been running open motor and battery rules?

I do like it that everybody has to run the same motor.

I do like it that everybody has to run the same battery.

I have bought 6 motors in 2 yrs, but I run 3 different classes in 13.5

Yes, the savings are tremendous because running an open class, you have to have different motors for different surface tracks & there is always someone coming out w/a different mah or c rated battery.

Look, I dont oppose a different ESC for 13.5, but I have been running my Tekin for 2yrs now & my Mambas for approx a year & they have not cost me anything to update, I think Salvas has the best idea, since everyone already has there current equipment, why not just run stock programming. Economy is bad enough & the racers dont need to spend more money on new ESC's.

Like I said earlier, there is no easy solution, nor will there be one that will please everyone.

GO FAST TURN LEFT ! Keith S.

[brhodes]

My biggest fear with the "Spec" programming is this. What if the spec programming is adopted and the LRP esc is a tenth quicker than any other esc? The guys willing to spend the money will run out and buy LRP's and leave the average racers behind. This is hypothetical but in my opinion a likely scenario. If it was as simple as everybody running spec programming and being equal then I am all for it but I find that unlikely given that esc's were not all equal prior to the programmable esc's.

[terry14]

My biggest fear with the "Spec" programming is this. What if the spec programming is adopted and the LRP esc is a tenth quicker than any other esc? The guys willing to spend the money will run out and buy LRP's and leave the average racers behind. This is hypothetical but in my opinion a likely scenario. If it was as simple as everybody running spec programming and being equal then I am all for it but I find that unlikely given that esc's were not all equal prior to the programmable esc's.


VERY good point. how close are the "spec" settings in all the different ones on the market? how could it not turn into the esc of the month with this being questionable?

[Dan D]

thats why 1 nonprogrammable ESC is the best way to go........no grey areas and no temptation!!! if it would be for example an LRP TC SPEC it is blue and tech would be easy and quick, very easy to identify.

[Rob Cutman]

Not every company has released their program with the "spec" settings yet. This is one of the reasons "nothing has been done" as a few have pointed out. I dont want anyone to think that this issue doesn't concern me because it does concern me very much, and I think I have made that clear in previous posts.

Scotty Ernst is the one who has spearheaded this effort with the speed control manufacturers and it has been an ongoing effort for him since December. I have kept in contact with him through the process and at this point I dont believe enough is known about this idea to be sure it will be a viable solution to the issues mentioned here. One thing I will not do is make some rule or decision about an issue that I am not at least 95% sure will be a step in the right direction.

I have taken the approach at this point that the speed control issues should be handled on a local/regional level for the present time. Illinois seems to be happy with their Non-programmable speed control rules right now. That same rule likely would not have been very popular had it been implemented in PA or NY at the beginning of the season where most racers already had a Tekin or a Mamba.

Do not confuse a lack of action at this point with a lack of caring. Trust me Im pretty sure I have more riding on the future of this sport/hobby than probably anyone who has posted on here so far. I am looking at all of the options available to deal with this issue and if at some point it becomes clear that one direction or another would work for a DODC rule/suggestion/guideline we will surely make that decision.

I would like to see this discussion continue so that everyone can post their concerns, I just wanted to make sure everyone understands that I have been paying attention to this issue and right now there is no "EASY" answer as this thread very clearly shows.

[racerjmh]

Curtis it is going very well. 3 races and 3 different winners so far. Speed Passion non programmable esc and 13.5 motor. cost is under a $100 for the package. Open front tires but have to run holeshots on the rear. Basically a DODC EDM body. And all the guys are grinning ear to ear and racing is very close. Definitely puts all the emphasis back on handling. Wish I was in that class.

Jim

[speed4less]

I still say break out for each class at each track. That don't cost anyone anything. No teching, no fussing about bodies, batteries, speedo's or anything. The best driver and every now and then the average guy can win one! I quit about nine years ago because of this same crap. Every time I got what I needed it changed. I thought this Lipo brushless deal was the way to go and things would not be changing every month or two now it sounds like it's going to. We all are racers and are always going to look for ways to go faster and we are always going to kill what we love by doing so! The only rule we can make is a rule that will not let you go faster. We have changed the rules for 20+ years now to slow the cars down and yet we still go faster! When someone realizes we have been changing the wrong rules all this time, we will fix the problem. Twenty years and the powers to be still can't get it right. I've been in some form of racing all my life and speed has always killed every form of racing I've seen. Till we set the speed you can go and not how you get it we will always have this same debate. Would it not be nice to know that when you left the house to go racing that you were going to be just as fast as anyone at the track. I'm tring to stick up for the guy who can't get that last few tenth's he needs to win no matter what the rules are. The guy who has been around a long while and can drive but can't run the speed the great racers can run. There's a hell of a lot more off them and that is the guy who quits. We have a lot of racers in the dirt oval commuinty they are just not running. It's because they don't feel they have a chance of winning and when they do get close we see the rules change and they have to spend more or stay home. I bet there at least 2,000 guys out there with the stuff to come race if the speed was set to where the stuff they have could run the speed it would take to be competitive. If your local tracks fast guys can run say 4.5's in the 13.5 class anything and you set a breakout of 5.0 almost everyone in that class could run the speed they need to be competitive and I bet almost no one would be out of control. There is some food for thought!

[Team GFRP]

Look, I dont oppose a different ESC for 13.5, but I have been running my Tekin for 2yrs now & my Mambas for approx a year & they have not cost me anything to update, I think Salvas has the best idea, since everyone already has there current equipment, why not just run stock programming. Economy is bad enough & the racers dont need to spend more money on new ESC's.




I too have had my Tekin's for 2+ years now and a couple of LRP's for a while. I actually don't even own a Novak speed controller. The main reason I brought up Novak was because they seem to be the only Company that thinks the Dirt Oval community is worth while. At our big races I've personally only seen a paid employee from Novak show up and show support not any from other companies. I'm all for taking care of the people that take care of us.

This whole topic is to save money and headache's in the long run. It has nothing to do with this company vs. that company. I wish that all the companies could/would actually make a profile to put in their speed controls that would be even across the board. BUT, I don't see it happening.

What I don't want to see happen is what happened at the local track in southern IN. They started off running 13.5 then the new software came out and it ran a few people off. Then they decided to run 17.5, that ran a few more off. At the end of the year they were even talking about maybe a 21.5 class. It is a 100' bullring and the 13.5's were just as fast as the mods there. Had they had a spec speed control then they would have still been running 13.5's and nobody would have had to rebuy motors mid-season.

[racerjmh]

Teching would be a PITA.


Tech is a royal PITA. I was the techman at the Chili Bowl JR 2009 and may never do it again. Had to dq a friend for a DODC sprint rule infraction after he bumped from the b to the a in nitro sprint. Trimmed more spoilers and wings than I ever should have had too. Had the rules at the pretech table and teched anyone anytime they wanted it done. Biggest complaints were for the 13.5 lm class. If ya want easy tech for 13.5 go to a completely spec esc, motor, battery, and tire. I don't care who's esc gets chosen just make it non programmable, stay with the DODC motor and battery, and go with CW street tracks with no alterations. Or ribs and holeshots for loose dirt. Put the focus back on setup and driving skills rather than $$$ and the trick of the week.

Jim

[Team GFRP]

I still say break out for each class at each track.


Break out racing seems to defeat the whole purpose of racing! It is good for a beginners class because it teaches consistancy and clean driving. Other then that I would rather go watch a women's basketball game or watch paint dry.;)

[Rob Cutman]

I still say break out for each class at each track. That don't cost anyone anything. No teching, no fussing about bodies, batteries, speedo's or anything. The best driver and every now and then the average guy can win one! I quit about nine years ago because of this same crap. Every time I got what I needed it changed. I thought this Lipo brushless deal was the way to go and things would not be changing every month or two now it sounds like it's going to. We all are racers and are always going to look for ways to go faster and we are always going to kill what we love by doing so! The only rule we can make is a rule that will not let you go faster. We have changed the rules for 20+ years now to slow the cars down and yet we still go faster! When someone realizes we have been changing the wrong rules all this time, we will fix the problem. Twenty years and the powers to be still can't get it right. I've been in some form of racing all my life and speed has always killed every form of racing I've seen. Till we set the speed you can go and not how you get it we will always have this same debate. Would it not be nice to know that when you left the house to go racing that you were going to be just as fast as anyone at the track. I'm tring to stick up for the guy who can't get that last few tenth's he needs to win no matter what the rules are. The guy who has been around a long while and can drive but can't run the speed the great racers can run. There's a hell of a lot more off them and that is the guy who quits. We have a lot of racers in the dirt oval commuinty they are just not running. It's because they don't feel they have a chance of winning and when they do get close we see the rules change and they have to spend more or stay home. I bet there at least 2,000 guys out there with the stuff to come race if the speed was set to where the stuff they have could run the speed it would take to be competitive. If your local tracks fast guys can run say 4.5's in the 13.5 class anything and you set a breakout of 5.0 almost everyone in that class could run the speed they need to be competitive and I bet almost no one would be out of control. There is some food for thought!

I wont knock it because I have never tried it. I have only ever seen a few breakout races and there was never more than 4-6 guys running it. Is there any tracks out there that are running breakout races and getting good turnouts. Im all for keeping speeds down but Im kinda with Dustin here, just seems like it would change the whole concept of racing.

[speed4less]

Rob,
Mike Bolin is doing in Fl at there club racing and it is going real good.

I'm sorry Dustin your my buddy but that is what a lot of these guys are saying to many think they have to always win or be the fastest guy. If things keep going the way they are that is what you will get to do! I have never had a problem getting fast but it is no fun running by myself. On the other hand there is nothing like coming off the drivers stand where almost every car was the same speed and you could go from first to last with one slip. I've raced in at least 5,000 rounds and the most fun I've ever had was when I won or come in last with ever car in the race on the same lap. That don't happen very often but when it does it's great. I just think it could happen a lot with a breakout and you would for sure have a hell of a lot more guys to race! We are racing not doing speed runs. I'm talking about club racing also. When you have a big race offer the same classes with the same rules just without a breakout. The guys who want to have the speed advange will run the open class and the ones who don't can stay in the breakout. The breakout class will have ten to ever one open car I'd bet. If that be the case so be it. I don't like being told what brand I have to run. The price will always go up for everyone. Look what one motor has done in the Limited Late Model classs and the 13.5 classes. $90 for a DODC 13.5 and you can get 13.5 motors for $60 all day long. The TG went from $119 to $169 and can get hard to get at times.(Sorry Rob) The only that can work is bid out any and all the spec parts. What if we take this to a spec car and it has to be a certain brand. That is what I'm hearing at our local track. We have Limited 1/8 and that still don't work for the average racer. They are wanting to start a IROC class and run everything the same. The same guys will win and the same guys will quit. Again there is no rules for talent. No matter what rules are certain guys will be faster than everyone else and most guys will quit! The way I see it almost everyone in this is a competitor with the hopes of winning and when they lose that hope they are gone!
When a race track starts a new class or spinoff of one they already have who runs this class? The newby's or the guys who can't be competitive in the class the spinoff came from? The guys who couldn't keep up mostly. Well before you know it there is no one left for the fast to run with and he goes to the spinoff class and then where does the guys who left the original class go. Home!

[speed4less]

I know I'm wasting my time with this breakout so I'll be done with it. I can go fast and can afford it so why worry......:confused: I'll always be an R/C racer no matter what the rules are so good luck finding the anwser.

[Dan D]

I too have had my Tekin's for 2+ years now and a couple of LRP's for a while. I actually don't even own a Novak speed controller. The main reason I brought up Novak was because they seem to be the only Company that thinks the Dirt Oval community is worth while. At our big races I've personally only seen a paid employee from Novak show up and show support not any from other companies. I'm all for taking care of the people that take care of us.

This whole topic is to save money and headache's in the long run. It has nothing to do with this company vs. that company. I wish that all the companies could/would actually make a profile to put in their speed controls that would be even across the board. BUT, I don't see it happening.

What I don't want to see happen is what happened at the local track in southern IN. They started off running 13.5 then the new software came out and it ran a few people off. Then they decided to run 17.5, that ran a few more off. At the end of the year they were even talking about maybe a 21.5 class. It is a 100' bullring and the 13.5's were just as fast as the mods there. Had they had a spec speed control then they would have still been running 13.5's and nobody would have had to rebuy motors mid-season.


another great post, exactlly what most have been saying at the track week in and week out......well when they show up.

[Dan D]

I know I'm wasting my time with this breakout so I'll be done with it. I can go fast and can afford it so why worry......:confused: I'll always be an R/C racer no matter what the rules are so good luck finding the anwser.


breakout???? it dirt oval racing not bracket racing (drag racing)!!!!! :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

[TQ Cells]

All of the spec modes are based on offroad or onroad telemetry. Therefore there will be one that outperforms the other.

I have already explained the difficulties in teching all the different speed controls on a local level. At a big race ie. OW, Freeze, and CBJ I would say those lists would be fine. If we have the abilities to reprogram speed controllers now, who is to say someone can't reprogram the "spec" mode?

Not true Dusty ...

Spec modes are not reprogrammable and are not based on this type of racing or other ... they simply have absolute no timing induced software ... the only timing then possible is via the Novak timing ring on the motor.

Steve.

[TQ Cells]

The key to your statement is 0 software induced timing. Then we go back to days before the programmable Tekin where the LRP had an advantage over the GTB due to timing built into the esc. Let's face it. If you allow 5 diff speedos there is the possibility of one brand being better than the rest. I can't understand how most can see the benefit of the dodc allowing only one option for motor and batt but can't see the same benefit on the esc side.

Other companies make 13.5 motors and 3200 28c batts but I sure don't wanna see other options available.

Just my opinion.

I'm not sure I get your point ... you are right the LRP has timing built into its various timing profiles (software induced) ... and that's why it now also has a SPEC software that will have the led blinking indicating it is set with no timing ... you can add timing (2) ways ... physically : Motor Timing ring or ... software : Via the ESC.

Being re-programmable or not doesn't change the fact that ALL speedo out there have a software built-in (even Novak GTB) ... What makes a speedo a SPEC speedo is its software that has no advanced or timing set in it.

Steve,

[Anytime72]

My biggest fear with the "Spec" programming is this. What if the spec programming is adopted and the LRP esc is a tenth quicker than any other esc? The guys willing to spend the money will run out and buy LRP's and leave the average racers behind. This is hypothetical but in my opinion a likely scenario. If it was as simple as everybody running spec programming and being equal then I am all for it but I find that unlikely given that esc's were not all equal prior to the programmable esc's.
__________________


Bob, right before the mamba craze hit in pan cars there were guys that dyno'd speedo and motor combo's looking for the best match. There were guys with 3 to 4 LRP Sphere's and looking for one that was better than the other. Then off to Ebay with the not so good ones. That turns into a higher expense but for some guys with deep pockets it wasn't a big deal and it still leaves others scratching their heads wondering why they are still behind. And I've scratched more than my head at times.

A $100 motor and speedo package sounds great. And $100 is pretty cheap considering how much one current speedo, one DODC motor and one DODC battery cost. So how will you stop someone from buying 4-5 $100 packages looking for the best of them and then the next guy buys 2-3 $100 packages just to look for the advantage of any type. Before you know it the cost will be higher than what we have already.

I don't envy Rob or anyone else who runs a Tour, Series, Event or LHS when it comes to adopting a set of rules that everyone can use. There is no easy solution to solve all the concerns of the racers. I do like the DODC concept with a spec motor and battery what I don't like is that the same items can be found for bought for less without a sticker.

[ksj44]

Tech is a royal PITA. I was the techman at the Chili Bowl JR 2009 and may never do it again. Had to dq a friend for a DODC sprint rule infraction after he bumped from the b to the a in nitro sprint. Trimmed more spoilers and wings than I ever should have had too. Had the rules at the pretech table and teched anyone anytime they wanted it done. Biggest complaints were for the 13.5 lm class. If ya want easy tech for 13.5 go to a completely spec esc, motor, battery, and tire. I don't care who's esc gets chosen just make it non programmable, stay with the DODC motor and battery, and go with CW street tracks with no alterations. Or ribs and holeshots for loose dirt. Put the focus back on setup and driving skills rather than $$$ and the trick of the week.

Jim


:thumbsup: spec motor battery esc and tires :thumbsup:

Make them manufactures that SUPPORT dirt oval racing!!!!

[Todd Putnam]

I believe that the 13.5 speeds are too fast for the racers the class is inteneded for. The increased speeds have increased the degree of difficulty for 13.5, and most of the guys that can handle the current speeds aren't allowed to run the class.

Speeds should be reduced. It would be great for all involved if no one had to purchase another speed control to do so. I believe the majority of the 13.5 racers own either a Tekin or a Mamba at this point. Tekin is working on a Spec profile, let's see how that works. Castle (Mamba) should be contacted to do the same. The majority of the dirt oval world is in the middle of their summer racing series, so nothing needs to happen overnight.

We have the ability to reduce the speeds of the equipment everyone currently owns - including reducing endbell timing as well and esc timing. We should focus efforts on utilizing the equipment the racers already own first rather than making every racer purchase additional equipment.

[ksj44]

Bob, right before the mamba craze hit in pan cars there were guys that dyno'd speedo and motor combo's looking for the best match. There were guys with 3 to 4 LRP Sphere's and looking for one that was better than the other. Then off to Ebay with the not so good ones. That turns into a higher expense but for some guys with deep pockets it wasn't a big deal and it still leaves others scratching their heads wondering why they are still behind. And I've scratched more than my head at times.

A $100 motor and speedo package sounds great. And $100 is pretty cheap considering how much one current speedo, one DODC motor and one DODC battery cost. So how will you stop someone from buying 4-5 $100 packages looking for the best of them and then the next guy buys 2-3 $100 packages just to look for the advantage of any type. Before you know it the cost will be higher than what we have already.

I don't envy Rob or anyone else who runs a Tour, Series, Event or LHS when it comes to adopting a set of rules that everyone can use. There is no easy solution to solve all the concerns of the racers. I do like the DODC concept with a spec motor and battery what I don't like is that the same items can be found for bought for less without a sticker.

We're racing dirt oval and not pan cars here.... we run heavier cars on imperfect surfaces. Even if one is slightly better then the next it will be equaled out by setup and a better driver. The hard core racers will always spend the money for an advantage and that's not the people we need to worry about here. It's the ones that can't afford to buy the new stuff all of the time are the ones that are leaving the hobby. If we even the playing field a little more and can give them a chance to be competitive for cheaper then the rules are successful. You can still use setup, driving, body, tires for and advantage but it is just taking away variables that cost alot more money.

[Anytime72]

We're racing dirt oval and not pan cars here

I'm starting to see more resemblance in dirt as times goes on.

maybe on a loose track when the power can't be put down but as the groove comes up so do the laps and then the seperation between the best and the rest.

[brhodes]

I guess I am just skeptical about the "spec" software making every esc on that list identical in performance. ROAR also has lists of approved motors and batteries and I think we can all agree that the performance of every item on those lists are not identical. ROAR is dedicated to on-road and off-road racing which have a different set of challenges than the oval world. A few percent variance from one esc to another on that list will not compromise the competitiveness of an off road race. In today's black track big hp dirt oval racing a few percent can make all the difference.


I also do not envy anybody that has to make these tough decisions. I know that Rob and the DODC will make the right decision on this issue and I will support it either way. :thumbsup:

[irocz69]

I know the current ESC's(Tekin & Mamba) have been the reason the 13.5 classes have gotten faster, but im not sure compairing the speed of the 13.5 to a Mod class is accurate. What I mean by this is, in the past couple years, I have seen LLM & Sprints running w/& or beating open Nitro cars. I believe this is due to greater corner speeds & controlability, so that is, in part, why less motored classes are running w/the open classes, along w/the formentioned ESC situation.

Now, being in this hobby for as long as I have been, I kinda agree w/Mr Ottinger on the breakout deal. Back when I started racing, we had a breakout rule & it worked very well. Alot of the guys racing in Central Pa, that have been around for awhile, had to run this class. It was very productive & made racers work harder on there setup & driving skills, so this option could work.

Reducing speeds, when you have been able to go faster n faster, is a hard pill to swallow, but needed! All forms of racing, even Nascar, have so called Spec racing, but, again, the cream of the crop rise to the top, which there is no getting away from. Like Dan said, the car counts here in central Pa are down & this is the area of the country that was hot n heavy last year.

Im not sure how to bring new people into the hobby, but most that are coming in & try the 13.5 class, do get fustrated because they cant keep up, but this also is because of lack of expereance. Even some that have run the class for awhile, cant deal w/the speeds. The IRS series here in Pa. offers a 21.5 class, but they have only 1 racer. I think this is because of economy, & also because some racers that currently race 13.5 dont believe they shoud go down in class, but probably would enjoy there racing more.

There are alot of things contributing to the problems in 13.5 racing & the speeds are just one of them. Maybe limiting the ESC's will help, but im not sure its the answer, but it would probably allow the newcomers to be more competitive & enjoy there day @ the track more. As in any form of racing, u will still have your go or go homers. This is not a hobby for the faint @ heart. We spend "ALOT" of money to do what we do & for the most part enjoy doing it.

Like Todd said, this is not going to be resolved overnight, so I guess we all have to stay tuned to see what can be done for the better of 13.5 racing!

GO FAST TURN LEFT ! Keith S.

[Team GFRP]

OK, lets try a different approach then...:D


Leave the speed controllers alone and go to a spec tire rule then. I would say the cost savings would be much greater there. It would also slow the speeds of the cars down due to lack of grip. Before everyone says screw spec tires let me remind you of some series that use them...

World of Outlaws
Napcar
IRL
Formula One
USAC

[FULLT1LT]

OK, lets try a different approach then...:D


Leave the speed controllers alone and go to a spec tire rule then. I would say the cost savings would be much greater there. It would also slow the speeds of the cars down due to lack of grip. Before everyone says screw spec tires let me remind you of some series that use them...

World of Outlaws
Napcar
IRL
Formula One
USAC


spec rubber or foam???
man you guys are starting early this morninng fillin up my email:D

[ksj44]

OK, lets try a different approach then...:D


Leave the speed controllers alone and go to a spec tire rule then. I would say the cost savings would be much greater there. It would also slow the speeds of the cars down due to lack of grip. Before everyone says screw spec tires let me remind you of some series that use them...

World of Outlaws
Napcar
IRL
Formula One
USAC

Spec rubber tires.... Hard compound and no "optional" compounds.... tires are a HUGE cost in DO racing and would even the playing field alot :thumbsup:

[Breckenridge]

Spec rubber tires.... Hard compound and no "optional" compounds.... tires are a HUGE cost in DO racing and would even the playing field alot :thumbsup:

I think one of the issues is that whatever the spec compound is, it can be softened using kerosene and various go-kart tire preps. I know that when CW came out with the softer compound tires, it was so the average racer would not have to go through the trouble to soften them using those methods.

[ksj44]

I think one of the issues is that whatever the spec compound is, it can be softened using kerosene and various go-kart tire preps. I know that when CW came out with the softer compound tires, it was so the average racer would not have to go through the trouble to soften them using those methods.

Durometer the tires.... it isn't hard to do.... yes the tracks will have to buy a durometer but if it brings racers back then why would it matter to them?

[screamingeagle]

the problem with the mamba esc is not the cost mainly, but I have three, one for the sprint, one for the lm and one for the edm. the problem is I have to take all three cars to the track just to make sure there will be enough other cars there to run at least one for the nite. I would be in favor of buying a spec esc to make higher car counts but before we make that decision we need to spec the enitre package. this week esc, next month 21-5, then rubber tires. rob was right on the money when he said the 13-5lm at bumps running 47 laps was way more fun then running 60 in a big show. it wasnt the cars or lack of talent but the track was made purposely to slow cars down and it worked. maybe the answer is not the equipment but maybe it is time for dirt tracks to be dirt tracks once again.

[RCRACR20]

Heres something to think about.....


Say the following items are mandated as DODC Spec Equipment, only for arguments:

DODC Motor = Novak 13.5 (or 17.5) SS Pro Motor
DODC Battery = SMC 3200 28C 7.4V Lipo
DODC ESC - Novak GTB
DODC Tire - BSR Silver


Each DODC motor, battery and ESC comes with a DODC label, sticker, whatever, making it easy to tech. DODC Tires are identified by yellow stipe on each tire. Again, easy to tech.


Well, theres the easy part. Easy to quickly tech, easy to spot. The next argument seems to be:


"What about the guys who buy 4 or 5 or more of each item, just to find the best one?"


Well, honestly, there is not much that can be done about that, unless every DODC Electrical item were to have a barcode, all the barcodes in a database, and all the barcodes registered to the individual who owns the item, and a limit on how many items can be registered at one time. Again, this could work for big races but would be a major PITA for the tech crew. Hell, each item can be registered for a particular class, with one overall spare allowed. If the item registered for that particular class, or the spare, is found to not be in the car when teched, then the individual is automatically DQ'd for that run. However, this would be very time consuming, and a major pain for those in tech.



Personally, I have no stake in this, as I am on the expert driver list, and locally, if there is a DODC class, its an outlaw class where motor, battery and esc are not spec'd. We run 17.5 up here, and we are going faster than we were with 13.5's last year, and car counts have definitly gone down because of that and that alone. There may not be 1 perfect answer to solve this problem, but a comprimising way to slow lap times and make racing closer will surely make it more enjoyable for the vast majority.

[CBear3]

I don't really think the argument about buying 4 $100 setups to find the best one is a reason to stop action. I can still go and buy 5 DODC 13.5 motors and pick which one dyno's the best right now. I can still buy 5 DODC batteries and pick the one that cycles the best. I can spend as much money as I want to try to find that one or two percent more power.

Moral of the story: Those with money will find a place to spend it in a spec class, regardless. If it was spec tires, they'd runa fresh set every round. It's just the fact of spec racing.

If you were to use a Novak or Speed Passion Spec ESC it would help 95% of the community. The other 5% will just take the hundreds of dollars they were spending on motors and batteries and divert some of it to speed controls. The playing field doesn't really change, you just make it simpler for the racers in the spec classes to get to the track and get dialed in.

A step short of that is ROARs Sportsman ESC list, and I'd agree that until there's data saying they're all within a couple percent of each other, it would be a major leap of faith to go there.

[ksj44]

I don't really think the argument about buying 4 $100 setups to find the best one is a reason to stop action. I can still go and buy 5 DODC 13.5 motors and pick which one dyno's the best right now. I can still buy 5 DODC batteries and pick the one that cycles the best. I can spend as much money as I want to try to find that one or two percent more power.

Moral of the story: Those with money will find a place to spend it in a spec class, regardless. If it was spec tires, they'd runa fresh set every round. It's just the fact of spec racing.

If you were to use a Novak or Speed Passion Spec ESC it would help 95% of the community. The other 5% will just take the hundreds of dollars they were spending on motors and batteries and divert some of it to speed controls. The playing field doesn't really change, you just make it simpler for the racers in the spec classes to get to the track and get dialed in.

A step short of that is ROARs Sportsman ESC list, and I'd agree that until there's data saying they're all within a couple percent of each other, it would be a major leap of faith to go there.

Well said :thumbsup:

[Mason]

I thought about the tires at one time as well, but even if we spec'd blacks (for foam) I'm pretty sure it would come down to who the Chemist/Dremel God is.

There is no one magic bullet guys. In the end it will be cheaper for racers to replace motors (since we like to overgear and get them a lil toasty!) than anything else. We do it to race different classes or disciplines anyways.

Personally I'm not a fan of spec or giving all my money to one person, charity, etc. Ask your LHSs how many distributors they use. Pretty sure its not going to be 1.
So I lean more towards the Sportsman Profile for those types of classes(lowest level). Leave the speedos alone in the other classes and we'll all just motor down in a year or two.

[racerjmh]

A $100 motor and speedo package sounds great. And $100 is pretty cheap considering how much one current speedo, one DODC motor and one DODC battery cost. So how will you stop someone from buying 4-5 $100 packages looking for the best of them and then the next guy buys 2-3 $100 packages just to look for the advantage of any type. Before you know it the cost will be higher than what we have already.


Go with the IMCA type of claim. Anyone in the "A" can claim any of the top 5's motor, battery, esc, tires, or shocks for a set price or a lower price and exchange. On exchange $$ it should go into the point fund or payback if there is any. That way the "advantage" is available to anyone with enough talent/luck to make the "A".

Make the claim equal to what replacement cost is (street price) for the items being claimed. And a flat $20 for each exchange. Leave the car out of the claim just like IMCA does.

Breakout sounds good but what if its a new track or faster one race and everybody or at least half the "A" breaks out? Or the winner of the lower mains breaks out? it's a tough situation getting competitive guys to not want to compete. just my 2cents

Jim

[racerjmh]

I believe the majority of the 13.5 racers own either a Tekin or a Mamba at this point.


That is true of the existing racers but as for new blood what do we do? When ya'll did the sit down before the DODC concept came into being how much was concerning the newcomer? I thought the DODC Losi Slider Class would have taken off like gangbusters but boy was I wrong. Rob said it somewhere on here before. Most folks can take a $300 hit to go racing but get near the $1000 mark just to get strated and you have eliminated a whole bunch of potential racers.


Jim

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

the problem with the mamba esc is not the cost mainly, but i have three, one for the sprint, one for the lm and one for the edm. The problem is i have to take all three cars to the track just to make sure there will be enough other cars there to run at least one for the nite. I would be in favor of buying a spec esc to make higher car counts but before we make that decision we need to spec the enitre package. This week esc, next month 21-5, then rubber tires. Rob was right on the money when he said the 13-5lm at bumps running 47 laps was way more fun then running 60 in a big show. It wasnt the cars or lack of talent but the track was made purposely to slow cars down and it worked. Maybe the answer is not the equipment but maybe it is time for dirt tracks to be dirt tracks once again.

absolutely!!!!!

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

That is true of the existing racers but as for new blood what do we do? When ya'll did the sit down before the DODC concept came into being how much was concerning the newcomer? I thought the DODC Losi Slider Class would have taken off like gangbusters but boy was I wrong. Rob said it somewhere on here before. Most folks can take a $300 hit to go racing but get near the $1000 mark just to get strated and you have eliminated a whole bunch of potential racers.


Jim

That falls on the local track owner in my opinion. When any new class is introduced the track owner needs to promote it. Moreso than the other classes. And if he can get a few racers to support the class already so that when newbies have questions there are answers. I don't know how many times I've had the newbie series of questions at my track. From how much to chargers, different platforms, etc.... If a track owner doesn't support a "Slider" type class and there aren't a few local racers running the class it won't just happen on it's own. We took on the Slider head on at the beginning of last season. Right off I bought 2 and a friend bought 2. We now get a dozen every round and more guys are buying up used ones online here because there's a base established. Yes guys come and go but a solid base has to stay for things to work... at least that's been my experience with them....

[Teamt2c]

i vote for the DODC going on a mission to find the perfect private label DODC ESC/BATTERY/ MOTOR package!

full package something around 199.99 lets say

for replacements
80.00 batt
80.00 esc
80.00 motor

still leaves money to go towards the national fund.

SPEC GOOD SOFTWARE! WITH TIMING ALREADY IN THERE!!! NO adjustments!!!! 17.5 motor (i not a fan of lower turns, i feel it works the motors harder.)

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXYDM7&P=0

$159.99 for a Novak Havok ESC & 17.5 Novak motor

http://www.promatchracing.com/proddetail.php?prod=2505

$39.99 for a Promatch 5200mah, 25C(130continous/260burst amps) 7.4 Hardcase lipo.
(Better than the current 3200/28C(~89.6continous/189burst amps) HALF THE PRICE!

That's just @ the $200 price!

Now what? LOL. There's a $200 setup.

[Teamt2c]

well i wasnt saying that. I am just stating an example. not a final price or combo

[curtisp]

Speed Passion offers Stock Club Race ESC & Motor combos. The combos are available with either a 17.5 motor (http://www.speedpassion.net/en/productDetails.asp?p=12280175) or a 13.5 motor (http://www.speedpassion.net/en/productDetails.asp?p=12280135)...it's also available with a 11.5 or 10.5, but we are talking about slowing them down not speeding them up.

IF DODC is looking into a spec speed control...Speed Passion might be worth looking at. The price for the combo on the Speed Passion site is $96.94...who knows...maybe DODC could work something out and get an even better price. :D

That combo with the current battery...and we would be just above the current price for a DODC battery & motor. :thumbsup: So...it's affordable...and does what some are asking for.

Just some food for thought...


I forgot to add...the Speed Passion Cirtix Stock Club Race ESC (http://www.speedpassion.net/en/productDetails.asp?p=12280) is available seperately for $55.99

[spottednewt]

My honest opinion... the equipment(batteries, motors or esc) is not the problem. I know that racing was too aggressive/ruff even before the "ESC wars" especially in the 13.5 LM class. Because of the lack of respect/sportsmanship from racers is whats the problem is. You can run through another racer with a LM and you may not break but an open wheel car you probably will. This is my reason why I decided to run out my 13.5 spec equipment. I know on paper it seems that the 13.5s are faster than mod cars and maybe for a few laps while on the track at the same time, but if you try to run a 13.5 in a mod class good luck. The closing rate is too much on the straits and your consistency you have with 13.5 is gone and after a few slow laps you cant make up the time.

Going to a spec esc mite be a good idea for new racers who don't have any equipment for a spec class but forcing racers who already purchased DODC equipment to be legal to compete and say now you need to have this ESC or you need to have a 17.5 (no 13.5) and this tire. What will be the next step after a year... you need to have this car (When does it stop)? With todays economy this is the last thing the spec classes need. To tell racers that you should sell your Tekin or MMP so you can get new spec equipment is unacceptable. It will flood the market, cause loss of value of equipment and I think some would sell and just not buy back in. So there needs to be a better way to level the playing field for what the races already have.

I feel the "fast" guys are always fast and will always do good in any class. Mainly from good driving and setup not from ESC or motors... At the last tour race the car that won the 13.5 LM class was not the fastest car in the main, just the most consistent, Good job Jeff:thumbsup:

Before changing equipment, they should outlaw the use of tire traction additive. Most of the time where racing is at its worst is when the track is black and everything is amplified (speed, reactions, everything..) I keep seeing referrals to the great racing at Bumps LM race a few weeks ago where 5 cars had 47 laps way off the 60 lap at the Freeze. There where a total of 16 cars and the track never had a groove. The IRS race at bumps also had great racing and again it was a green track.

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

Before changing equipment, they should outlaw the use of tire traction additive. Most of the time where racing is at its worst is when the track is black and everything is amplified (speed, reactions, everything..) I keep seeing referrals to the great racing at Bumps LM race a few weeks ago where 5 cars had 47 laps way off the 60 lap at the Freeze. There where a total of 16 cars and the track never had a groove. The IRS race at bumps also had great racing and again it was a green track.

I agree 100% with what you are saying. Good luck getting the "traction addicts" to give up their goop! Besides they like the side effects of many of the products... ;)

[troyer7]

I'm fairly new 2 the hobby. But a spec motor, batt, esc and tires sounds good 2 me. this sucks 4 me because i bulit 2 cars 1 with a tekin and 1 with a mamba. I don't beleave this is anything that will happen right away so the cost of this would give me time 2 save money.As 4 the people going out and buying 3 or 4 motors and esc 2 find the best 1 that is there problem. If everything is spec then that should mean that we r all the same. People r gona spend money no matter what. I could't agree more with tring 2 keep cost down and making it so everyone is on the same playing field. I'm all 4 it. just my 2 cents. b easy on me now. lol

[spottednewt]

Just an idea... Maybe it would be worth looking to having a harness/adapter (similar to a lipo cut off) that would regulate any brushless ESC to output a certain max current and timing, so tech would only need to check if a racer has the harness/adapter installed.

[Team GFRP]

Just an idea... Maybe it would be worth looking to having a harness/adapter (similar to a lipo cut off) that would regulate any brushless ESC to output a certain max current and timing, so tech would only need to check if a racer has the harness/adapter installed.


Then you would just have to kill the chip in it and make the current just go straight thru it. I thought of that as well and that same point was brought up to me.

[Team GFRP]

spec rubber or foam???
man you guys are starting early this morninng fillin up my email:D


Foam. Trying to run different types of tires on the same track doesn't work too well. Just ask the guys in IL and they are running all rubber tires...

I asked John at BSR about this 3 years ago because we were thinking of trying it out at our local track. He said he would make them if there was a need for them. There will be people that say you can cheat the spec tire deal which is true but there are people that will cheat in any way they can just to try to get an advantage. I would suggest a Double Pink or a 30 tire. The silvers are great for traction most of the time but wear way too fast. The double pink and 30's both wear decent and offer decent bite on most surfaces.

I do think that you could allow the major man. of tires to submit a tire for the spec tire so there would still be different options. As long as the foam is in the same family they will act quite similar to one another.

[Team GFRP]

Quote:BrianD 10-1-08 Week the DODC announced it's rules...



Originally Posted by hobbyman_7 http://www.dirtoval.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dirtoval.com/forums/showthread.php?p=252474#post252474)
BrianD - So basically any 13.5/17.5 and 3200 mah lipo battery we have will not be legal. Your not going to specify an already available motor or battey.




"The motor and battery combinations for the spec classes will be spec DODC products. The idea behind the spec Lipo pack and brushless motor is so that all racers are playing from the same deck of cards. It’s easy to see that the lipo and brushless thing could easily get out of hand with racer’s having to buy what they believe to be the most competitive pack and motor everytime somthing new wins a race. This spec pack is a good solid pack that will remain available over an extended amount of time. When you walk up to the drivers stand you will know that the motor and lipo in your car is the same as every other car on the track "

Seems to me that doing a similar deal with the speed controller would fall right in place here...;)

[glgraphix]

Dustin, I would agree also. Having always run in Stock or 13.5 (except for Mod EDM back in the "round cell/brushed years"). I had a really good combo with the GTB and 13.5, then the LRP came out. Had to sell the GTB because I couldnt get the same lap times. Then came the Tekin and Mamba.... The main problem I see with all the changing, is like Brad said "why should I have to sell my stuff for less money". EXACTLY!!!! Everytime I sold the older esc, I lost money.

I'm with you here Dustin, if everyone had the same combo, it would make everyone have the same "hand" and have to learn to drive. Not just blow by you in the straights because they have the power advantage, just for you to catch them in the corners because you work on your driving and setup. Just to get tangled up and loose in the final laps because they didnt.

I get tired of going home almost every weekend I race with a broken car, because of someone else.

Just get a SPEC esc, get everyone one the same power, and see where you wind up at the end, pretty close I'm sure :checkeredflag:

Kevin

[troyer7]

Who approves this spec idea. And if it was 2 work how long would it take 4 us 2 start using it. just trying 2 prepare myself 4 spending some more money. But with that being said i think it is a great idea.

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

Like the love I'm hearing for the spec tires.... Sign me up on the petition for 30+ Duro tires and no traction gunk!!!! I would think that most all the tire MFG's have a tire that is 30+ duro. Don't spec in just 1 manufacturer... Let all equally participate. When there is competition the CONSUMER wins...

Just another off the wall thought.... Maybe Track owners should consider how they work in their surface too... I know every track is different but if they turn the top and don't allow traction compound the surface might not blue groove as quickly... just a thought...

[curtisp]

I'm all for a spec esc...especially for races like the Open Wheel & the Freeze. My home tracks don't have a 13.5 class...it's either race 17.5 or open mod. So when I head out East for a big race...I have to buy a motor & battery for each car that I race (since I choose to race the 13.5 classes)...that was for 3 cars at the '09 USOW. I feel that I have a much better chance with a spec motor and a spec battery than I would have before that rule went into effect. I think that a spec esc would tighten the field up even more. Granted...the fast guys will still be fast...and some will still struggle...but overall the racing should be closer.

[kipp]

im liking open mod electric more and more!!! lol.

[RCRACR20]

Like the love I'm hearing for the spec tires.... Sign me up on the petition for 30+ Duro tires and no traction gunk!!!! I would think that most all the tire MFG's have a tire that is 30+ duro. Don't spec in just 1 manufacturer... Let all equally participate. When there is competition the CONSUMER wins...

Just another off the wall thought.... Maybe Track owners should consider how they work in their surface too... I know every track is different but if they turn the top and don't allow traction compound the surface might not blue groove as quickly... just a thought...



There has been a "no tire traction" rule at the open wheel race before. Track still got black. The groove comes from every car running in the groove. Tends to happen mostly on outdoor tracks during day races. Night races, because moisture comes back up through the track, there tends to not be a groove, even with traction compound.


-Radio Hill - Never seen a black or blue groove there and they do allow traction compound.

-Walts old outdoor track - Only saw a black groove during the Summer Classic, which started at 2PM in the afternoon.

-Wizards Raceway in Scriba NY - No black groove on Friday Night club races, only on Saturday special events run in the afternoon

-Finger Lakes Raceway - Again, only black grooved during the day

-Fountain Raceway - Grooved only during the day.


Point is, whether traction compound is allowed or not, tracks will still groove up if A) racing during the daytime outside B) racing indoors with a good turnout (say 40+) or C) at a big race.

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

There has been a "no tire traction" rule at the open wheel race before. Track still got black. The groove comes from every car running in the groove. Tends to happen mostly on outdoor tracks during day races. Night races, because moisture comes back up through the track, there tends to not be a groove, even with traction compound.


-Radio Hill - Never seen a black or blue groove there and they do allow traction compound.

-Walts old outdoor track - Only saw a black groove during the Summer Classic, which started at 2PM in the afternoon.

-Wizards Raceway in Scriba NY - No black groove on Friday Night club races, only on Saturday special events run in the afternoon

-Finger Lakes Raceway - Again, only black grooved during the day

-Fountain Raceway - Grooved only during the day.


Point is, whether traction compound is allowed or not, tracks will still groove up if A) racing during the daytime outside B) racing indoors with a good turnout (say 40+) or C) at a big race.

Yeah I do here you. I think Radio Hill is more likely to get wavy in the turns on high car count days than truly blue groove. Although at one of the last trackmasters races I raced in a blue groove was starting. but no where nearly as bad as I have see elsewhere.

Just a result of soft tire compounds that are also high rubber content I guess? I guess when I first think about blue groove I think over the hundreds of WoO and EDM races I've gone too. Way back in the day for me circa mid 80's/90's some tracks bluegrooved and some didn't as much. But there was lots of grip many days/nights when the bluegroove wasn't so bad. Now in more recent days especially at WoO shows it's as if they want the track to blue groove. For me when a track blue grooves it turns into follow the leader thru the groove, make a few brave (stupid) moves to get around him and get back in line. That's what has turned me off of WoO sprint shows. Track is good for hot laps and time trials but by the end of that the multi-groove racing is gone.

Into R/C I see the same thing. I hate to race on a bluegroove track. I like a multi-groove surface. since many ovals in the NE don't have a lot of banking the faster line tends to be at the bottom. blue groove from my experience only worstens that trend.

I guess in the little world my mind lives in there always needs to be 2 solid grooves, no blue grooving, and always slideways side-by-side racing. or at least the track surface that allows for this type of racing. And watching all the races from across the east coast down to the carlinas when it blue-grooves it becomes like watching indycar.... (change channel and find something else)

IDK. rambling. LOL. not sure how to keep a track from bluegrooving I guess is the ultimate question??? harder duro tire & no sauce? re-work the track between rounds? Not total tear down but muddy it up, and run back in with the tractor tires? something. Just stop the insainity of carpet/asphalt looking racing on dirt....:D:thumbsup:

[CBR]

im liking open mod electric more and more!!! Lol.
exactly!

[races65]

exactly!

.12 is pretty easy to tech also :D

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

im liking open mod electric more and more!!! lol.

Open Mod is So easy to tech. A caveman could do it! :D:ha:

Just drop in that 3.5 motor, 9000mah 100C lipo and HANG ON! ;):revs::tire:

[khennig]

As a person who raced 13.5 a few times, I felt that I needed much more than the right ESC.

I felt I would need ceramic wheel and trans bearings, hollow topshaft, cut gears, 64 pitch spurs/pinions, aluminum outdrives, string trimmer pins , etc. to have a car capable of running up front.

13.5 seems to have dual meanings. A novice class, and a highly technical class that is as difficult to run as mod.

Is this an issue for anyone else?

[rj14]

This esc thing is too volatile....and changing rapidly.

Personally I am about done w/ 13.5 stuff all together. Going to go w/ more nitro when I can.

How many of you guys have made a 4 min run and pulled the car off at 160 deg. Go through the car, do everything the same only to have the motor meltdown for no reason???

There has to be something I am missing in the equation. This sort of thing is frustrating even to a seasoned racer. I ran for months w/ a speed passion w/ no variable timing and never had these issues and was very competetive.

Now I will just move on to my next project......a mod car w/ no battery.

[glgraphix]

As a person who raced 13.5 a few times, I felt that I needed much more than the right ESC.

I felt I would need ceramic wheel and trans bearings, hollow topshaft, cut gears, 64 pitch spurs/pinions, aluminum outdrives, string trimmer pins , etc. to have a car capable of running up front.

13.5 seems to have dual meanings. A novice class, and a highly technical class that is as difficult to run as mod.

Is this an issue for anyone else?
The thing is, you dont have to have all the above, but boy does it help a lot, lol. And really, 13.5 has never been a "novice" class, we are just too plan competitive.

Dirtoval racing has Never been a "cheap" form of R/C Racing. No offence, but if your about saving money, try eletric off-road racing. I raced a truck for 4yrs without spending much more than $100 in parts broken. I can tell you with over 20yrs in the R/C biz, DO racing is one of the most expensive, but one of the most competitive forms of all of it.

I have seen guys race and win with really "old" stuff. In fact, I get my butt handed to me on a regular basis from a good friend that runs an old Direct Drive sprinter, hehe (insert David Mize here, lol).
The point is, if you work more on driving an car setup, your going to catchup soon, and when you do get the right combo your going to drive right by them....

:twocents: Kevin

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

The thing is, you dont have to have all the above, but boy does it help a lot, lol. And really, 13.5 has never been a "novice" class, we are just too plan competitive.

Dirtoval racing has Never been a "cheap" form of R/C Racing. No offence, but if your about saving money, try eletric off-road racing. I raced a truck for 4yrs without spending much more than $100 in parts broken. I can tell you with over 20yrs in the R/C biz, DO racing is one of the most expensive, but one of the most competitive forms of all of it.

I have seen guys race and win with really "old" stuff. In fact, I get my butt handed to me on a regular basis from a good friend that runs an old Direct Drive sprinter, hehe (insert David Mize here, lol).
The point is, if you work more on driving an car setup, your going to catchup soon, and when you do get the right combo your going to drive right by them....

:twocents: Kevin

I would say that to be honest Dirt oval like many R/C racing sports has it's levels of cost. I mean a good oval setup in pretty much any class will cost you somewhere around $1000-$1500 to get "All the goodies". And off-road is much the same. You have your entry level $300 ride and you have your $1000-$1500 classes. I personally love Truggy and that is WAY more expensive to be competetive with. $500 for a roller, $300-$400 for a GOOD motor. And by the time you get the good elecs and speed parts well you get the idea....

But from little experience I have in the my area. (200mile radius from NY) The off-road hands down has a much larger "cheap" racing class setup. Yes they have the 4WD Buggy & Truggies, And a bunch of Monster Trucks but they also have an equally sizeable entry level 2WD/4WD short course and Stadium truck following. With Oval that large entry level class just isn't there in force.

Again I don't know why or what the answer is... That's just what I have noticed. Hell we've got more off-road tracks popping up literally monthly here. There's at LEAST 6 within an hour from me and all having their own drive based with roughly 20-30 entries weekly or bi-weekly. And numbers are growin' there!!! It's crazy.

Cross-over classes is the only GOOD thing I can take from that whole boom in our area. I get 12-15 short course trucks running on oval and around a dozen stadium trucks that also cross-over. Now PA doesn't see that but we sure as heck do here in NY! Crossover platforms here are really taking off and I think that if more tracks looked to tap what's already there in other formats it could help them as it has directly helped me.

just my humble .02! :thumbsup::D

[khennig]

Kevin,

I must not have provided enough info, but cheap racing is not what I was referring to. I am from the midewest and my cars are set up for mod racing. To be competetive in 13.5 when traveling to tracks that offer the class, I find to run up front, much more money needs to be spent than just buying a DODC motor and battery. When gearing our cars to keep up at these events, our motors run way too hot. When we gear down to keep the temp at 160, we are too slow. We have the right speedo, but too much drag. Reduced drag costs money. I understand that. I see 13.5 as being more costly than mod, and more challenging to stay competetive from an equipment perspective. I understand this, but get confused when people refer to 13.5 and state many of the drivers cannot handle the speed of a current 13.5 setup. Many of the 13.5 drivers seem good enough to run up front in mod, but must enjoy the additional tinkering and thinking required to run 13.5. I too would probably run 13.5 if I lived in PA or somewhere this class had large turnouts. Lord knows I can't handle the speed of mods.


Keith

[ksj44]

There has been a "no tire traction" rule at the open wheel race before. Track still got black. The groove comes from every car running in the groove. Tends to happen mostly on outdoor tracks during day races. Night races, because moisture comes back up through the track, there tends to not be a groove, even with traction compound.


-Radio Hill - Never seen a black or blue groove there and they do allow traction compound.

-Walts old outdoor track - Only saw a black groove during the Summer Classic, which started at 2PM in the afternoon.

-Wizards Raceway in Scriba NY - No black groove on Friday Night club races, only on Saturday special events run in the afternoon

-Finger Lakes Raceway - Again, only black grooved during the day

-Fountain Raceway - Grooved only during the day.


Point is, whether traction compound is allowed or not, tracks will still groove up if A) racing during the daytime outside B) racing indoors with a good turnout (say 40+) or C) at a big race.


I agree... it happened this weekend at LA for the nitro tour race. It grooved up during the day and then it just got higher bite as the day went to night. It's funny because you can see as the bite came up the racing got worse.....way more wrecking as far as cars hitting other cars. To be competitive on a track like that you have to adjust your car to it and have the car on edge. Not many drivers can drive on a track like that because it is all reflexes. It has taken me along time to get better at tracks like that and I run them alot here in PA. I'm not for tracks grooving up like that but you have to race on what you are given..... Not sure what the solution is when you have to race in the day time.

[glgraphix]

Kevin,

I must not have provided enough info, but cheap racing is not what I was referring to. I am from the midewest and my cars are set up for mod racing. To be competetive in 13.5 when traveling to tracks that offer the class, I find to run up front, much more money needs to be spent than just buying a DODC motor and battery. When gearing our cars to keep up at these events, our motors run way too hot. When we gear down to keep the temp at 160, we are too slow. We have the right speedo, but too much drag. Reduced drag costs money. I understand that. I see 13.5 as being more costly than mod, and more challenging to stay competetive from an equipment perspective. I understand this, but get confused when people refer to 13.5 and state many of the drivers cannot handle the speed of a current 13.5 setup. Many of the 13.5 drivers seem good enough to run up front in mod, but must enjoy the additional tinkering and thinking required to run 13.5. I too would probably run 13.5 if I lived in PA or somewhere this class had large turnouts. Lord knows I can't handle the speed of mods.


Keith
LOL, I now what you mean. I truthfully would rather run Mod, as how like you said, its really cheaper. But, we hardly get 5-8 Sprints on any given weekend @ our local track. Here in NC, its always been Latemodels. I tried it for a while, and may build anotherone. But I have always loved Openwheel DO racing the most. I like the competitivness of 13.5, but like you said, it tends to cost a little more.
I'm sending you a PM, answer me back if you will...

Kevin

[terry14]

As a person who raced 13.5 a few times, I felt that I needed much more than the right ESC.

I felt I would need ceramic wheel and trans bearings, hollow topshaft, cut gears, 64 pitch spurs/pinions, aluminum outdrives, string trimmer pins , etc. to have a car capable of running up front.

13.5 seems to have dual meanings. A novice class, and a highly technical class that is as difficult to run as mod.

Is this an issue for anyone else?

i disagree. although the items above will help, they will NOT win a race for you. being smooth with your driving is the key. if you can't buy a dodc motor and battery, and be competetive (with a good esc set up) then you are getting out driven or beat by better set ups. i for one am not a great driver yet, however i will put my car up against anyones with the same driver. it is a stock kit car, no trick parts at all. i also know that some of the dominate 13.5 cars on the pa tour are bone stock.

[BigT]

Keith, I see what your saying and Terry a good ESC set up is what I think Dustin is trying to address. I in no way am trying to say I am against Tekin ( I own 2 of them) or any programmable esc but there not all equal in the old verses new or there programing.

[WYD]

If you want to slow the cars up simply use a 21.5 motor and all the high end speedos like Tekin, SPeed Passion and Castle have a new ROAR spec timing setup. Slower cars. No need to buy yet another speedo and get stuck with what I think is a useless cheap speedo that has no ability to upgrade. Everyone pretty much already spent money on the new stuff over the last year or more so why have the racers buy yet more SPEC stuff that is already obsolete.

17.5 is slower thant 13.5 but not by much but 21.5 with ROAR timing is slower. The touring guys run this setup for a sporstman class at alot of tracks is it is a nice amount slower. You want faster then the next step is either a 13.5 class like now with open speedos or just run mod.

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

How about a gear and max tire diameter rule? that way you can't gear these to the moon and expect the motor to pull the gear for 4 minutes??? and limit timing advance? then from track to track you'd only need to figure out what the pinion gear max would be... pinions are cheap.

[dlm7s]

[quote=OTR SPEEDWAY;418405]Like the love I'm hearing for the spec tires.... Sign me up on the petition for 30+ Duro tires and no traction gunk!!!! I would think that most all the tire MFG's have a tire that is 30+ duro. Don't spec in just 1 manufacturer... Let all equally participate. When there is competition the CONSUMER wins...

I also like the thinking of using a spec ESC & motor combo. I am now racing the nitro limited late model class & enjoy it . I am thinking about getting electric limited late model but am waiting to see how this debate ends up . I have to travel 3+ hours to race & with the cost of traveling overnight it cuts deep into the racing budget. :checkeredflag: :checkeredflag: :checkeredflag:

[FULLT1LT]

http://www.dirtoval.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53020

[inman20k]

I just got back from the cap tire nationals. I ran 13.5 and we had to run a spec tire, they where bought at the track for a discounted rate and where all engraved and painted so you could not mix and mach them. I think this would be great for all spec class as would "ROAR sportsman mode". My vote would be for BSR 30 as control tire and $30 per full set and as people purchase set's it is recorded and that is the set they must run. If a tire gets chunk-ed more pairs can be bought for 15 per pair, I am sure john would gladly do this. BSR 30 hold up and work very well at Bumps and Jumps and the also work well outside so they will not go to waste. I would say allow traction compound B/C there is no sure fire way to tech that.

[Teamt2c]

well what about this?


Nitro Classes

Limited "Spec" Latemodel (os tg Spec- Rubber tire one compound)
Limited " Spec " Sprint (0s tg Spec- Rubber tire one compound)
Open Sprint
Open Late Model
Open EDM


Electric
17.5 Latemodel ( Spec- Rubber tire one compound, and Motors are sealed from timing advance epoxy in the screws, SPEC Software)
13.5 Spec Sprint ( Spec- Rubber tire one compound, and Motors are sealed from timing advance epoxy in the screws SPEC SOFTWARE)
Mod Sprint
Mod EDM


These are listed in order of newbie to advanced racer. I hope that this woiuld make it affordable and easier for the racers to be competitive when it matters most. and that is when you start out.

oh an i left trucks out. If i was to include the trucks i guess it would be the following


nitro the same as now

Electric: listen up

SC style OEM truck, or buggy based car with either a truck body(with sidedam and rear wing) or 1/8th scale lm body with stock components if the electronics are to be changed they must adhere to 17.5 late model electrics to allow an easy transfer in cost to the first beginners class.

if the people are complaining the person should move up. annouce everyday that is more a class to introduce and make sure people know to not take it any other way.

[Team GFRP]

Mixing rubber tires and foams on the same track normally doesn't work well. Spec a foam tire and have the tire companies step up to the plate and provide one.


As for the whole speed controller deal... Use the Roar spec modes for the first 6 months of the year in 2011. See how they all compare if they are all compatible then keep it. If not spec out a speed controller and stick to it!

[Teamt2c]

Mixing rubber tires and foams on the same track normally doesn't work well. Spec a foam tire and have the tire companies step up to the plate and provide one.


As for the whole speed controller deal... Use the Roar spec modes for the first 6 months of the year in 2011. See how they all compare if they are all compatible then keep it. If not spec out a speed controller and stick to it!


i think even at bumps you can use the cw rubbers, or foams. remember those are for starter classes, trying to eliminate the grove masters, tire master and lower some costs to the racers that do not take it like a CUP car race.

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

Mixing rubber tires and foams on the same track normally doesn't work well. Spec a foam tire and have the tire companies step up to the plate and provide one.

- Foam Spec Tire. No traction stuff allowed. Durometer tech every raceday. 30Duro?

Biggest complaint I hear about cost is the 1 motor 1 battery rules..... for regulers the cost isn't a big deal but for new blood looking to "try" things out it's an expensive 1 time investement if they don't like it....

How about basing "limited" rules on Kv of the motor, Mah & C rating of the Lipo?

No more 1 battery 1 motors.... It just drives the cost up for equipment...

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

i think even at bumps you can use the cw rubbers, or foams. remember those are for starter classes, trying to eliminate the grove masters, tire master and lower some costs to the racers that do not take it like a CUP car race.


As much as I love rubber foams actually help newbies because of their characteristics. But I think eliminating tire additives and softeners would help a LOT. making the tire guru's much less evident...

[Teamt2c]

As much as I love rubber foams actually help newbies because of their characteristics. But I think eliminating tire additives and softeners would help a LOT. making the tire guru's much less evident...


i can tell you this; i can beat that "no tire additive" and if i can 1000 more can. You can increase traction without soften the foam.

So i wouldn't go that way.

[Teamt2c]

you can have open motors, just limit what power can go down to the track with a Tire and this will be it.


6.5 turn spec tire
13.5 spec tire

I bet they will be close as long as the compound choosen is still "not" Hooked in the lower turn motor.

[Custom Works RC]

How about basing "limited" rules on Kv of the motor, Mah & C rating of the Lipo?

No more 1 battery 1 motors.... It just drives the cost up for equipment...

Biggest issue there is they will not all perform the same in a competetive racing environment which means you end up having to buy the combination that proves to be the fastest. And yes there will be a superior combination whether it is actual or percieved.

[brhodes]

Biggest issue there is they will not all perform the same in a competetive racing environment which means you end up having to buy the combination that proves to be the fastest. And yes there will be a superior combination whether it is actual or percieved.

The one battery and one motor rule was one of the biggest factors in me switching to dirt from pan car racing. I bought one motor and battery in october and am still running them. I am not sure how it could get much cheaper for a season of racing.

[Teamt2c]

The one battery and one motor rule was one of the biggest factors in me switching to dirt from pan car racing. I bought one motor and battery in october and am still running them. I am not sure how it could get much cheaper for a season of racing.


i will second that and i used my motor in pan car too. i had one from oct too still a great competitive motor.

[signman501]

I'm still running the same battery I got at the 1st USOW when the went to this deal and its still fast as it was when new, a year and a half later. Still running the Novak motor when they changed them too. The car is fast, the driver is not. I'm very happy with the 13.5 setup and I don't see the problem with the esc's either. Buy one esc and change it as necessary. Dpsen't cost anything to upgrade it. No problem at all.

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

Biggest issue there is they will not all perform the same in a competetive racing environment which means you end up having to buy the combination that proves to be the fastest. And yes there will be a superior combination whether it is actual or percieved.


very true... very true...

[flying5]

Biggest issue there is they will not all perform the same in a competetive racing environment which means you end up having to buy the combination that proves to be the fastest. And yes there will be a superior combination whether it is actual or percieved.

i like one motor rule but the smc battery is why i wont run,I'M NOT talking bad about smc just i havent had good luck with there products durabilty like a thunderpowers so if you limited the mah like now and said any battery could run as long as it is DODC approved which would be done maybe twice a year and no where near a big event so everyone can have access to that pack i think it would be better.

[Doug D]

Biggest issue there is they will not all perform the same in a competetive racing environment which means you end up having to buy the combination that proves to be the fastest. And yes there will be a superior combination whether it is actual or percieved.

Rob - This is why I think a DODC sealed nonadjustable timing brushless esc is needed....introduce it at this years USOWC race at a discount like you did w/ the batts and motors in 08'...:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Axo24]

Wow...I wished I would have been following this thread from the beginning. I just started this dirt oval gig this winter and raced religiously for a few months until recently. Started out in LLM and then into 13.5's which I LOVED....and progressed from "sucked" to "not to damn bad for a rookie". It was a HUGE learning curve and I learned alot and spent a fortune. The one thing(or two:) I can add to this thread is....

Dudes.....your all overthinking all this way too much. The 13.5 class rules aint perfect,but its pretty damn close! The 13.5 class isnt for beginners or intermediates.....its a full blown class all it own just like any other high dollar class with all the same top notch drivers in it already. If you want to keep costs down...forget it. The rules are pretty good the way they are. ESC's arent gonna win you races. Years of experience will. And no ESC is gonna make up for that. Granted if you wanna put the years in...you'll need that esc to win maybe,but by then a few extra $$$ just goes hand and hand. Same goes for trying to control tire rules.....thats would be huge mistake. Guys will find ways to cheat that kind of stuff like you could never imagine. And that stuff WILL make a huge difference. You just have to keep it open and spend the money.

If you want to make a cheap spec class for beginners you'll have to look somewhere besided the current 13.5 class where your already spending $500 for a good chassis, $100 for 1 battery, and $100 for a motor.


If you want a cheap spec beginner class (and dirt oval really needs it right now), get rid of the $500 chassis stuff and high dollar DODC stuff and spec an over the counter RTR....such as the Losi Sliders etc(and even then you'll have to change some stuff and spend a few extra $$$).

Had to put my 2 cents in and make it long to make up for lost time,lol.

[ctsieber]

If you want to make a cheap spec class for beginners you'll have to look somewhere besided the current 13.5 class where your already spending $500 for a good chassis, $100 for 1 battery, and $100 for a motor.


I guess I need to buy a new chassis. The one I'm running doesn't cost $500 ;)

I feel that something needs to be done to end the software battle. Maybe the curse is the spec software, or going to a spec ESC. I like the idea of the speedpassion club racer combo. $100 for an esc / motor combo. :thumbsup:

[irocz69]

I guess I need to buy a new chassis. The one I'm running doesn't cost $500 ;)

I feel that something needs to be done to end the software battle. Maybe the curse is the spec software, or going to a spec ESC. I like the idea of the speedpassion club racer combo. $100 for an esc / motor combo. :thumbsup:

Curt, I think the point was a car cost $500.00 not just the chassis. :D

GO FAST TURN LEFT ! Keith S.

[ctsieber]

Curt, I think the point was a car cost $500.00 not just the chassis. :D

GO FAST TURN LEFT ! Keith S.

I know ;)

[curtisp]

... ESC's arent gonna win you races. ...

Sorry...I have to disagree. Take two experienced racers...with good cars...in a DODC 13.5 class...give one of them a Tekin RS (or RS Pro) or a MMP and give the other an esc that does not have adjustable timing...I can tell you who my money is on. ;)

I feel that something needs to be done to end the software battle. Maybe the curse is the spec software, or going to a spec ESC. I like the idea of the speedpassion club racer combo. $100 for an esc / motor combo. :thumbsup:

I like the idea of the Speed Passion club racer combo too. :thumbsup:

I like my Tekin...and like all of the free updates that come with it and the ability to make a 17.5 or 13.5 SCREAM!!! I like that DODC has limited the battery & motor in the Spec classes...I think that is better than allowing a list of motors & a list of batteries. It's just that the esc companies have made huge gains in what they can do...and when new software comes out that gives one an advantage over another...some racers run out to buy a new esc to keep up...that wouldn't be an issue with a spec esc or using the spec software (at least it seems like it wouldn't).

[ctsieber]

I like the idea of the Speed Passion club racer combo too. :thumbsup:



I agree. Just think with a $100 combo, and maybe add in a battery that is cheaper, how many more people would at least try the 13.5 class's. I know a few guys I raced with at our carpet track that didn't want to get into dirt oval after it closed because of the cost of the speed control, motor and battery. Give the a motor, battery, esc combo for say $150 and I could see a bunch of them jumping in.

[irocz69]

Im not sure, but I would think technology advances w/the esc's are only going to allow you to go so fast w/the current 13.5 motors & batteries before you start blowing everything up. I have seen a stability in the speeds since the first of the year in this class & believe track conditions, setups & driver ability are making a difference.

Agreed, this class is not for the faint @ heart, but there does need to be a starting point for the newcomers & even some of the current drivers in 13.5 classes that cant handle the speeds. What that solution is, has yet to be determined, but why dismantle one of the largest classes in the country. I don't see that helping the hobby either!

GO FAST TURN LEFT ! Keith S.

[screamingeagle]

this past sunday we raced the IRS series at the mill and the sprint car and edm mains were very clean. all ran 13-5 and all the timing we could get. the late models are the only ones with any incidents and it is because the lm bodies are just plain harder to drive unless you are a very good driver because they lack the needed downforce and side force the average hobbiest needs to be stable. I have three cars which means three batteries and three motors ($600.00) three mambas $450.00) so I really don't want to see a major change. after all we are suppose to be in a recession someone said!

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

I agree. Just think with a $100 combo, and maybe add in a battery that is cheaper, how many more people would at least try the 13.5 class's. I know a few guys I raced with at our carpet track that didn't want to get into dirt oval after it closed because of the cost of the speed control, motor and battery. Give the a motor, battery, esc combo for say $150 and I could see a bunch of them jumping in.

I really like the sounds of a $150 motor/esc/battery pricepoint! I have a lot of weekly racers that have the equipment to fit either the loose or clay DODC rules but the cost of electronics to be competetive keeps them out of the DODC tracks. I think if DODC could come up with an affordable package like is being suggested many would definately "TRY" this class. And if they didn't like it there are always those that will buy their stuff....

Like what I'm seeing and hearing! :thumbsup:

[ksj44]

I agree. Just think with a $100 combo, and maybe add in a battery that is cheaper, how many more people would at least try the 13.5 class's. I know a few guys I raced with at our carpet track that didn't want to get into dirt oval after it closed because of the cost of the speed control, motor and battery. Give the a motor, battery, esc combo for say $150 and I could see a bunch of them jumping in.


I think the motor and ESC combo might be a good long term fix but I think we should try do the roar spec software thing first.... see if it works and if not then make a change to the spec esc if needed. Why make a huge change if it ends up being that it is not needed? People already have the equipment, it's just a matter of changing the software. Either way a change of some sort needs to happen soon.... I think we can all agree on that. If it comes out that a spec esc is needed then that can be changed in the future, leave the motor and battery alone.

[Mason]

to get back to GFRP's original post... spec speed controller at this point in time is not a good idea. Everyone who is racing to "race", already has the latest and greatest. (Fairly sure I was the last convert to the new fancy speedos) That's where these rules are aimed for. At the local level the local track/LHS will race whatever pays the bills. Especially right now.

The technical side of this issue has been addressed by ROAR and adhered to by majority of manufacturers targeting the racers. How that relates to DODC is an implementation issue.

Do we follow the ROAR Sportsman just for 17.5, do we motor down to 21.5 w or w/o timing?
Do we offer create an intermediate class of 17.5 and keep the timing?
Do we follow the ROAR Sportsman for 13.5 or do we motor down to 17.5 w or w/o timing?
Going forward with the latest advancements do we keep mod? is it necessarily raced anywhere regularly other than as a melting pot local class of guys who just want to "go fast" and wheelie down the straights?

Keep in mind that since the late 80s early 90s we've had to slow down every so many years and that it will happen again in the future.

[luke81]

Mason's got a good point about tracks needed to race whatever they can race, but I've got a bit of a counterpoint. With the electric late model class growing some in FL I thought I might get one for next year. Seems like less hassle than nitro, but I have no electric stuff at all right now. But then after talking to a few local pan car guys it sounds like the initial cost is huge and the constant arms race to stay ahead with the best stuff/software/dyno tuning/etc just sounds like another way to flush cash down the toilet.

[pascooter]

You guy are spinning your wheels, saying the same thing over and over. Anyone racing in the DODC races, PANT, IRS, WDRA already has a Mamba or Tekin and a couple DODC batteries. How are any of these proposals going to save any of these 1000's any money? It won't, we would all have to buy new equipment. As a store owner that is fine, as a sponsor it sucks.
What about the cost for the new guy just getting into this sport? He shouldn't be in any of these top classes anyway. He is in the way and will just cause problems for the rest that are fast. He should be at the local track learning the skills necessary to move up. There should be run what you brung sportsman classes at all the local tracks. The track owner will dictate who is in this class and when they get out of the class. For any track owner that says this is too hard, grow a set and just do it. It has worked fine for us.
If you want these people at the big races, have one open class, and anyone that shouldn't be with the fast guys, put them in this class. If you think they will get pissed and 10 will not come back, so what, they were making it hard for the other 150 guys, this is a big time race, come back when you are good enough. That is what is going to happen with the invitations to the Open Wheel, and it should, it will make for better racing.
OK bring on the flames!

[mikejhs82]

"What about the cost for the new guy just getting into this sport? He shouldn't be in any of these top classes anyway. He is in the way and will just cause problems for the rest that are fast.



If you think they will get pissed and 10 will not come back, so what, they were making it hard for the other 150 guys, this is a big time race, come back when you are good enough. That is what is going to happen with the invitations to the Open Wheel, and it should, it will make for better racing."



Statements like these are EXACTLY why you have dwindling car couts....The attitude of get out of my way ,I am the fast guy and won't help anyone that isnt TQ material...

You guys forget these are toy cars. You started at the bottom ,would you be here today if you were told this trying to get started??????:thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:: thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::th umbsdown:


Mike Warner

[pascooter]

Boy you definitely missed it. The new guys and some that are coming back or from carpet need a place to start, not trying to stay out of the way of a guy running a 3.8 lap. Give them a place to start where they are not intimidated by the fast guys. Starting in a sportsman class and learning car control has helped several people that run our track. Most of them have moved up and are now having a great time running in one of the DODC classes. There has to be someone that is willing to stand up and say you are not ready yet, you need more experience and also see to it that people will help them learn.
We are luck that at our track everyone tries to help the new or upcoming guy out.

As far as cost, what ever happened to used equipment. There are only two cars out there, Custom Works or, one variation or another of an Kranzel Intimidator. Used ones can be bought for $75 and fixed up. It does not need a Tekin to see if someone likes the sport. Ask Eddie Strada what an RC10 gold tub can do.

[Doug D]

You guy are spinning your wheels, saying the same thing over and over. Anyone racing in the DODC races, PANT, IRS, WDRA already has a Mamba or Tekin and a couple DODC batteries. How are any of these proposals going to save any of these 1000's any money? It won't, we would all have to buy new equipment. As a store owner that is fine, as a sponsor it sucks.
What about the cost for the new guy just getting into this sport? He shouldn't be in any of these top classes anyway. He is in the way and will just cause problems for the rest that are fast. He should be at the local track learning the skills necessary to move up. There should be run what you brung sportsman classes at all the local tracks. The track owner will dictate who is in this class and when they get out of the class. For any track owner that says this is too hard, grow a set and just do it. It has worked fine for us.
If you want these people at the big races, have one open class, and anyone that shouldn't be with the fast guys, put them in this class. If you think they will get pissed and 10 will not come back, so what, they were making it hard for the other 150 guys, this is a big time race, come back when you are good enough. That is what is going to happen with the invitations to the Open Wheel, and it should, it will make for better racing.
OK bring on the flames!


Wow! Really nothing to be said but totally counterproductive to what the DODC is about, if everyone adopted your ideology potential growth of dirt oval would be nonexistent.

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

Wow! Really nothing to be said but totally counterproductive to what the DODC is about, if everyone adopted your ideology potential growth of dirt oval would be nonexistent.

I agree. Totally against what DODC is about.... :thumbsdown:pa scooter:redflag:

[AscotConversion]

You guy are spinning your wheels, saying the same thing over and over. Anyone racing in the DODC races, PANT, IRS, WDRA already has a Mamba or Tekin and a couple DODC batteries. How are any of these proposals going to save any of these 1000's any money? It won't, we would all have to buy new equipment. As a store owner that is fine, as a sponsor it sucks.


Here's a simple answer, run the spec no timing software out for all these ESCs. Nobody spends any money, and you can run old stuff (GTB, Sphere) or new stuff (Tekin, Mamba).
Problem solved.

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

Here's a simple answer, run the spec no timing software out for all these ESCs. Nobody spends any money, and you can run old stuff (GTB, Sphere) or new stuff (Tekin, Mamba).
Problem solved.

yeah but you just negated the advantage they spent hard earned greenbacks on.... lol. ;) btw. LOVE your avatar pic.... those were the days!!!

[Mason]

Otr, it doesn't keep them from using the same equipment elsewhere. That's the half the point of having something as versatile.

Luke, with progress comes a product life cycle. You wouldn't bother racing a cv-r against a tz/xz/whatever it is this year would you?
so strap the old stuff in an old buggy and race it in bomber like the rest of us. That's what the class is based on!

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

Otr, it doesn't keep them from using the same equipment elsewhere. That's the half the point of having something as versatile.

AGREED. idk. it seems every week I have a different sollution that sounds plausible. Why can't we rewind to sportsman, stock and mod???? lol. It's so easy to tech mod that a caveman could do it.

fyi I've never owned a tekin or mmp but I have downloaded the free software and used my MS(C++) app to edit the software castle provides and after seeing how things can be manipulated... I'd never think that you'd get 100% compliance setting all the ESC settings to "spec". Sorry but too many ways to change the software... The only way to truly have a spec ESC is to have a non-programmable one. It's a tough area for DODC as we can see by all the angles being discussed on here....

DO needs stepping stones. beginner/cost friendly classes up to experienced classes that cost more to stay competetive.... DODC I think would like to make this claim with their rules but so far it's more on the latter. Even the "limited" classes and 13.5 are expensive.

Lets just say heck w/ ESC tech. Manditory gear rule and min tire diameter. (SPEC TIRE while I'm at it. 30 duro min). lol. then pick a gearing that doesn't tax the esc/motor so no matter what esc/motor/lipo you have you'll never pull enough amperage to matter.... then all the new and old technology won't make much difference.

Tech would be easy. Spec tire. 1 pinion/spur. and check voltage at the motor with a voltmeter..... oh wait that would be too much like IROC. ;) just thinkin' out loud.

[pascooter]

You guys still don't get it. There should be a place at every track for the beginners to start. We have always had a novice or sportsman class, as a place for some one to start. They can run what they have and get some experience and find out if they like it without spending a bunch of money and without being intimidated by the fast guys. We have a one hour practice just for them every week, before the fast guys get out there. How is that not trying to get new people started?

As far as DODC is concerned we were one of the very first tracks to sign up and have promoted it ever since. I even have lent my motor to guys so they can run DODC class, when there were were no new motors available. I just want to see a class were the new or inexperienced can run at the local and the tour races without being cussed out by someone on the drivers stand because they hit them or spun out in front of them. (and don't tell me that never happens.)

[luke81]

Luke, with progress comes a product life cycle. You wouldn't bother racing a cv-r against a tz/xz/whatever it is this year would you?
so strap the old stuff in an old buggy and race it in bomber like the rest of us. That's what the class is based on!

Some guys have run CVR's and similar. Fast - no. Goes in circles - yes. I personally wouldn't, i dont see the point in spending the money to race if you don't give yourself a fighting chance. But some see it differently i suppose. :)
And if i wanted to race a bomber I'd just buy one. I could be looking at it wrong, it just seems that in electric much more than nitro you have to spend spend to keep up with the fastest parts out there, and if you dont you've got little chance.

[siggy99x]

You guys still don't get it. There should be a place at every track for the beginners to start. We have always had a novice or sportsman class, as a place for some one to start. They can run what they have and get some experience and find out if they like it without spending a bunch of money and without being intimidated by the fast guys. We have a one hour practice just for them every week, before the fast guys get out there. How is that not trying to get new people started?

As far as DODC is concerned we were one of the very first tracks to sign up and have promoted it ever since. I even have lent my motor to guys so they can run DODC class, when there were were no new motors available. I just want to see a class were the new or inexperienced can run at the local and the tour races without being cussed out by someone on the drivers stand because they hit them or spun out in front of them. (and don't tell me that never happens.)


George has a great thing going with what he does for the new guys with his sportsman program trust me guys he knows what he is doing.
We have a sportsman class with our IRS series everyone wanted it and said thats great we had one guy enter it. And anyone that seen the class run said that is the perfect speed for new racers and less experienced drivers and it was a currnet day dirt oval car with a lm body we used restricted timing rules on the esc similar to the snowbirds had last year with dodc battery and a 21.5 brushless motor. But some are to proud to move to this class till they get comfortable driving and setting up there cars or complain that they would need a 21.5 motor which in the long run would be a lot cheaper then all the money they spend on broken parts going faster then what they should be. We are dedicated to a sportsman class and hope more racers and new racers take advantage of it in the future

[trout7c]

i bought a sprint and latemodel to have some fun over the winter, both 13.5 motors and tekin speeds. $1,500. later the stuff is going to be outlawed, Now i know why people are getting out

[Team GFRP]

i bought a sprint and latemodel to have some fun over the winter, both 13.5 motors and tekin speeds. $1,500. later the stuff is going to be outlawed, Now i know why people are getting out


What is being outlawed:confused:

[trout7c]

maybe i miss understood a previous post but it sounded like going to a spec speed control in the 13.5 class?

[Team GFRP]

maybe i miss understood a previous post but it sounded like going to a spec speed control in the 13.5 class?


nope only in the 17.5 class is there a spec speed control

[MRDmotorsports]

Hey Chad, you selling the 358 sprint and coming rc racing or just finding something for the offseason????

[teopro27]

did someone mention food:D

[Matt Murphy]

did someone mention food:D


Yes Sir!

http://www.dirtoval.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55875

[nexttime]

Whats up buddy,Does that mean i can buy back my late model ?