Open Classes

[furdog]

I think there should be a rule in the Open Classes that a driver must be able to somewhat keep up with other cars in that class. I recently raced and won my heats by 15 laps. It is very hard to race with cars that are that far off the pace. It is also running other racers off. If i were that far off the pace or my car was that bad i would pull off. I want to see everyone have a chance to race. I think some should run a limited class. Thanks Steve

[brockh]

I think there should be a rule in the Open Classes that a driver must be able to somewhat keep up with other cars in that class. I recently raced and won my heats by 15 laps. It is very hard to race with cars that are that far off the pace. It is also running other racers off. If i were that far off the pace or my car was that bad i would pull off. I want to see everyone have a chance to race. I think some should run a limited class. Thanks Steve
though this should work in theory, there are just not enough cars to keep splitting classes up. You have to pick your poison, do you want to run with slower traffic (essentially making you a better driver) or do you want to run with 3 cars(essentially turning race day into practice day). With as many classes as we have running right now, it is hard to be sure you are going to get to race when you pack everything up and go to the track nowadays. Lets look back at the Newville heydays... you had sprint, novice sprint, edm, novice edm, truck, and novice truck. 3 main classes were available and there were 100+ turnouts for a regular Saturday night show with open sprints dominating the night... what happened? we added classes... the first class was open late model which cut the EDM class in half. Then we did the limited late model and it KILLED EDM all together. We added limited sprints and cut the open sprints in half, we added electric sprint which affected both open and limited, now open sprints are few and far between on a regular night. I don't exactly know why limited late model took off and got so big but it continues to grow now because who wants to go to the track and run any other class that has 3-4 cars? 13.5 late model is growing huge as well... there again, why not buy a car where you know you are going to get to run it...if there are big numbers in that class, people migrate there.
I get the fact people like to go to late model because you buy the car and body and you are ready to go, there is no wing to build, no bodies to mount just right, and its a full body so you are going to break less, who can blame someone for wanting to race on a budget...I don't! I would just like to see some of our other classes around here make some sort of comeback but i'm just not sure its going to happen.

[kerstetter]

I agree 100% brock honestly I would like to see some of the class's go away thats why I run limited latemodle because there is good car counts

[Dan D]

this a great topic. i agree with what Nic D said at the freeze. if someones car is out of control and causing havoc they should be pulled. some times its like playing yard darts.

[Breckenridge]

Well said Brock. I would like to see tracks take a firmer stance on what classes they run instead of saying "if 3 of you show up you can race." Just because a class has DODC rules doesn't mean it needs to be run every week. I might have to do like Rob and get a limited late model for the weekly races. At least I know there will be cars to race against.

If you are winning by 15 laps the best thing to do is try to help the slower guys get up to speed. If they are that far off the pace there is usually something majorly wrong with the car.

[kerstetter]

Yeah still dont know why this is not enforced I watched your race steve and yeah that sucks when some1 is all over if they simply would be given a warning first and then if the ill handling car remains bad be pulled it would clean up racing considerbly plus if its always the same person and there getting pulled every race they would soon get the point this a great topic. i agree with what Nic D said at the freeze. if someones car is out of control and causing havoc they should be pulled. some times its like playing yard darts.

[Rob Cutman]

Not sure how you would implement a minimum speed rule, and not sure how or why one class would benfit from it over any other class.

I agree with what Brock is saying. It is important for track owners and Race Directors to choose classes that make sense for their racers and for what is popular in their area. The DODC rules allow for several options as far as classes go but that doesn't mean they all need to be offered everywhere. I understand the need for a track owner to make as much money as possible but the old saying "3 or more makes a class" I think can often hurt participation in the long run by diluting the fields.

For whatever reason the Latemodel classes have surged in popularity in the last year or so throughout the country. If you look at the racing across the country the majority of the LM racing is spec or limited and the majority of the Sprint racing is Open and Modified.

I am certainly not picking or choosing here but just to use Limited Sprints as an example: If Open Sprint is consistently a bigger class and Limited Sprint is suffering in numbers it may be best at some point to no longer offer Limited Sprint. The limited drivers could move up to open even if they dont have an open motor as the speeds at a lot of tracks are not a huge difference. This would in turn strengthen the Open Sprint field as far as numbers and may even save some time in some cases. The reverse could be done for Latemodel.

Before anyone straps on the flame throwers please realize that I am not advocating or suggesting anyone does this. I am simply pointing out that it may be the best way to alleviate some of the issues described above. It really would do nothing to help in the issue mentioned in the initial post though.

Rob

[Matt Murphy]

I am in my first year of promoting a series out west, and the biggest thing in my opinion, is to offer the classes you think fill the racers needs the best. If a class will not draw consistent numbers... get rid of it. The racers will find another class and strengthen that one.

I really wish I raced in the early 90's. I hear stories of races with 5 classes and hundreds of racers... Stock 6-cell and mod 7-cell 2WD, Stock 6-cell and mod 7-cell 4WD, and Open Sprint. Back then, the top guys made the A-Mains, and guys that were usually D-Main drivers fought for the C-Main, but accepted a D-Main spot. They all had goals of making A-Mains, and worked to get better. Now days, we just offer 20 classes and everyone can find a class to cherrypick, and instead of 15 total guys on the podium, we now have 60! Makes everyone feel better..... until we lose guys due to racing against the same 4 or 5 guys.

I have learned alot this year from promoting races... you will never please everyone, but if you can please 90% of them, you are doing a good job. People will always find something to complain about, but no matter what, your decisions have to be based on the best interest of the racers and the race series.

Back to the original topic, every year at open wheel, there is a couple guys that for whatever reason, they gotta sign up for modified and open nitro, even though the limited and 13.5 classes suit there abilities much better. And they become unguided missiles, or as I like to call them, "Ballistic Jam-Cars", but who is really gonna step in and say, hey, you gotta earn the right to race modified or open??? That is a touchy subject for most. I dont have an answer to the problem.

Matt

[JASONHastings]

I am in my first year of promoting a series out west, and the biggest thing in my opinion, is to offer the classes you think fill the racers needs the best. If a class will not draw consistent numbers... get rid of it. The racers will find another class and strengthen that one.

I really wish I raced in the early 90's. I hear stories of races with 5 classes and hundreds of racers... Stock 6-cell and mod 7-cell 2WD, Stock 6-cell and mod 7-cell 4WD, and Open Sprint. Back then, the top guys made the A-Mains, and guys that were usually D-Main drivers fought for the C-Main, but accepted a D-Main spot. They all had goals of making A-Mains, and worked to get better. Now days, we just offer 20 classes and everyone can find a class to cherrypick, and instead of 15 total guys on the podium, we now have 60! Makes everyone feel better..... until we lose guys due to racing against the same 4 or 5 guys.

I have learned alot this year from promoting races... you will never please everyone, but if you can please 90% of them, you are doing a good job. People will always find something to complain about, but no matter what, your decisions have to be based on the best interest of the racers and the race series.

Back to the original topic, every year at open wheel, there is a couple guys that for whatever reason, they gotta sign up for modified and open nitro, even though the limited and 13.5 classes suit there abilities much better. And they become unguided missiles, or as I like to call them, "Ballistic Jam-Cars", but who is really gonna step in and say, hey, you gotta earn the right to race modified or open??? That is a touchy subject for most. I dont have an answer to the problem.

MattSo what your sayin is I have to earn the right to run with the top guys in the sport??????????????

[Matt Murphy]

Actually, I am not saying that at all..... but what I am saying, is that some guys in open classes get frustrated by the speed differences with some of the slower guys running open, and think that should be the case..... I think that some of the guys should police themselves and run the slower of the classes.... but Limited only means slower HP, higher corner speeds...LOL!!! The HP is often what gets the guys in trouble anyways.

I personally do not think anyone needs to earn the right to race anything. But on the same token, the top guys are not allowed to run Limited at the Open Wheel, maybe there should be a qualfying system put in place to run an "Invitational" class??? Just a thought..... I personally have not been allowed to run Limited or 13.5 classes at Open Wheel since those classes inception.... I wouldnt frown upon a qualifying system at top-tier regional races that decides who can or cannot run open or modified classes though.

Its hard to tell racers what classes they should run, and I disagree with the notion of doing it in 99% of situations. We don't want to turn anyone away at the typical show. But with open wheel being the Premier event for Dirt Oval racing in America, maybe the premier classes should be reserved for the premier drivers. Open Wheel is the only race that typically turns racers away, so there is room to be selective on who can run what.

But Jason, as a general statement, I do not think a racer needs to earn the right to race against any other racer. On the Open Wheel level, i think it could change the dynamic of the race, for the positive!

Matt

ps...that was alot of typing, and I may have construed some points, so if it doesnt make sense, cut me some slack LOL.

[terry14]

as far as slower guys in the top classes, isnt that what reshuffles, 4 minute time qualifiers(heats),and eight car mains are supposed to take care of? unless a top guy brakes in both his heats he should end up at the top of the chain, running with the other top guys. i tried running mod electric sprint for a while. i was the joke of the class. it took someone verbally slamming the he!! out of me on the stand for me to realize i shouldnt be running that class. i am sticking with 13.5 late model and limited late model. with running those two classes i can fit in better, and still get my a$$ kicked by the top guys who run those classes as well as open. dont take this the wrong way. i love racing against the top guys. i know the day will come when i will be able to run competitively with them. i use them as a guage as to how good i am. for a top guy to complain about the slower cars is crazy. without the slower cars the fast cars realy arnt all that fast. as far as a car that is out of control that is a different story. HELP THE GUY OUT. maybe he will stay around longer to grow the sport (hey there is an idea). go ahead and fire away, its just the oppinoin of a slow guy (most of the time)

[Matt Murphy]

Terry - I agree with you. We need to help the out of control guys!!!! As you stated, guys gotta find the class(es) they fit into. A 7 yr old first time racer does not need a sprint car wuth a 3.5 turn motor in it!!! Lots of people step in and wanna go fast, but I would say 85% of the racers across the country would go faster with a TG, than they would with a Murnan 353. But that doesnt stop guys from trying to run more motor!!! Limited classes often prove this theory, especially with the abundance of talent in limited classes in PA!!!

Matt

[emmettracing#1]

This brings up a very good point I think! Fast guys should help slower guys! Matt murphy and allen webster are setting a new bar in california for fast guys! These guys are the fastest in the country, and its funny cuz you go to a race and there never in there pits there in everybody else helping! And because of these guys there are other fast guy poping up and that equals more competition which equal making matt and allen faster! So basically sounds like if your beating the field by 15 laps you got some work to do, and at the same time your helping yourself out as well!

[furdog]

I was trying to be very nice when i posted this as to not upset anyone. The point is there are a few people out there that dont want any help and they have been racing RC for 20 years or more. These people just dont have the talent to race at the speeds that we are going these days. Nobody is slow these days there are just a few people that are out of control and are running people out of that class.

[Rcer19]

terry, i understand what you mean about " what the reshuffle is for", BUT when you have a few cars in your heat that are not up to par, and you are dodging them, "most" of the time, that guy has a very hard time getting enough laps to seperate himself from the next group of "racers". Or what do you do when the fast guy gets broke dodging guys? So the reshuffle sometimes means nothing.
It is a very touchy subject, and by no means am i trying to single anyone out or criticize anyones talent, I have no room to talk.

[DJM]

Good points guys, but more often than not, when you are looking for the answer to a problem concerning dirt oval racing. You will find that great eye-hand coordination, money, and time on the track, makes all the difference. Regardless of most anything else, if one of these three things are missing, the racer will do poorly. Maybe a worst case scenario would be something like, getting drunk, loosing your job, showing up very late to the track. L.O.L

[Matt Murphy]

I disagree with the money part. I have known many racers over the years who can get it done spending 20% as much as the average guy.

[brockh]

I disagree with the money part. I have known many racers over the years who can get it done spending 20% as much as the average guy.
on the other hand, i know plenty of people that spent wads of cash and can't get out of their own way... it takes time and help from those who can explain things so they can understand.

[DJM]

We could solve the problems one of several ways. We could remove the turn marshals? We could give the turn marshals, special instructions, to remove cars that are on there tops, or that have gone into the infield, or that have blasted the wall. We could just keep it real. If a real car wreaks, they wave the flag and get the driver off the track. What do you think?

[BOOSIER RACING TIRES]

I think it should be up to the individual to have enough common sense to pull their car off the track after relizing they are out of control, why ruin everyone's night of racing, there will be another heat/race.

[emmettracing#1]

I think it should be up to the individual to have enough common sense to pull their car off the track after relizing they are out of control, why ruin everyone's night of racing, there will be another heat/race.

I totaly agree with you! Iv been one of thos guys where my car was completly balistic and couldent keep it on the track, and I pulled it off out of respect for my fellow racers!

[DUBES]

Some of the best drivers out there love to run limited classes for various (mostly good) reasons. Because they are so good and their equipment is set up right- they often run over or get screwed by the less prepared or less talented competitors, sometimes they voice their displeasure with the race, racers, or track owners. Now the less talented or less prepared individual hates the limited class, he watches the open class and sees less entries and thinks he'll run open and have better luck. Goes to open and is in just as bad or worse shape, doesn't pull his car and reads a post the next day about how people like him don't belong. Next he stops coming all together.

This is one example of how the system is its' own worse enemy. Flip it around, the fast guy keeps getting screwed out of a win or keeps getting broke due to the slower guys, gets pissed off- stops coming. Again, the system fails.

How often do we need to debate the system when it is clear that there is a need for class structure dictated by skill level and not what engine is in the car?

We have all (for the most part) agreed that dodc would lead the way for the hobby. In my mind, it is up to dodc to figure it out and implement a plan if it wishes to continue to be the leader (sanctioning body?) of r/c dirt oval racing.

So as not to voice out loud with out a constructive suggestion- if at a dodc track, don't plan on running open if you have not competed in a dodc series or national point system and finished in the top 1/3 (?) of the points collecting field. Once you have, you recieve an open card from dodc. Once you have been issued a card- don't ever expect to run a limited class ever again. And no, you can't refuse the card. Each dodc track will have a card roster on file to check to ensure entries are correct. To kick it off, dodc and the tracks know who the racers are and who should immediatly be issued an open card. Start it effective at 2010 open wheel and forward from there out.

There- no classes added, new guys will have good used equipment to purchase from those graduating each year to "open" status. Classes should not dilute, new guys will enter open, new guys will join in in limited. Some guys will be in open and can't go back, some may never leave limited. A true busch and cup style structure with a truck class also! (which needs dodc rules! Left to another time to debate).

Let me jump in the fox hole before you start firing!

[dirty one]

Some of the best drivers out there love to run limited classes for various (mostly good) reasons. Because they are so good and their equipment is set up right- they often run over or get screwed by the less prepared or less talented competitors, sometimes they voice their displeasure with the race, racers, or track owners. Now the less talented or less prepared individual hates the limited class, he watches the open class and sees less entries and thinks he'll run open and have better luck. Goes to open and is in just as bad or worse shape, doesn't pull his car and reads a post the next day about how people like him don't belong. Next he stops coming all together.

This is one example of how the system is its' own worse enemy. Flip it around, the fast guy keeps getting screwed out of a win or keeps getting broke due to the slower guys, gets pissed off- stops coming. Again, the system fails.

How often do we need to debate the system when it is clear that there is a need for class structure dictated by skill level and not what engine is in the car?

We have all (for the most part) agreed that dodc would lead the way for the hobby. In my mind, it is up to dodc to figure it out and implement a plan if it wishes to continue to be the leader (sanctioning body?) of r/c dirt oval racing.

So as not to voice out loud with out a constructive suggestion- if at a dodc track, don't plan on running open if you have not competed in a dodc series or national point system and finished in the top 1/3 (?) of the points collecting field. Once you have, you recieve an open card from dodc. Once you have been issued a card- don't ever expect to run a limited class ever again. And no, you can't refuse the card. Each dodc track will have a card roster on file to check to ensure entries are correct. To kick it off, dodc and the tracks know who the racers are and who should immediatly be issued an open card. Start it effective at 2010 open wheel and forward from there out.

There- no classes added, new guys will have good used equipment to purchase from those graduating each year to "open" status. Classes should not dilute, new guys will enter open, new guys will join in in limited. Some guys will be in open and can't go back, some may never leave limited. A true busch and cup style structure with a truck class also! (which needs dodc rules! Left to another time to debate).

Let me jump in the fox hole before you start firing!




all your going to do is not have anyone
run the limited class. cause 70 per. of the guys that run that class are good drives and shouldn't be in that class acording to what you are saying. at the open wheel race. i never got to even run that class. (limited ). cause i was put on that list of drivers. i think it will be almost the end of that class. thats were the people are running. thats one of the tightes classes i ever seen. giving someone a card that tells them they can run a limited class is wrong. i go to the open wheel race and can only run 2 classes cause i'am on that list of people. just my 2 cents.

dirty one

[DUBES]

All good points- dirty one, not thought out completely to alleviate all the concerns that would arise. And the plan is probably a little extreme.

What ever the answer is, we all know the goals- do not dilute classes, grow the hobby- make every single person happy!

should be easy for some one to figure out...

[Matt Murphy]

[quote=DUBES;405805] do not dilute classes, grow the hobby- make every single person happy!


LOL....Good luck!:D

[curtisp]

All good points- dirty one, not thought out completely to alleviate all the concerns that would arise. And the plan is probably a little extreme.

What ever the answer is, we all know the goals- do not dilute classes, grow the hobby- make every single person happy!

should be easy for some one to figure out...

Now that's funny...I don't care who you are!!! :D

[mikeschellracing]

i like to run the open classes. but most of the time the are only a few cars in these classes. this is the main reason i've run limited some this year. there are alot of talented drivers running limited. in my opinion there are 8-10 guys who run llm who should run olm. if these 8-10 guys move up there would be plenty of olm's and i would park the limited. the real fast llm racers aren't helping that class anyway. i feel if they keep running limited that in a year or 2 that class will fall off in entries also. the reason i say this is because these top drivers get all upset when they get caught up in a wreck with a new racer. next thing you know there talking bad about the guy, and the new racer is run off. over period of time the class will continue to get smaller. this is alot of the reason the open classes are so small now as it is. i think the real problem lies with the fast guy. there has been many times i've had problems with lap cars, but very seldum do i think the guy wrecked me on purpose. and while i'm not completely inosent when it comes to keeping my mouth shut on the stand [in the heat of the moment], more times than not i will apologize to the racer who wrecked me shortly after the race when i cool off. i don't want to sound like a preecher but some people seem to forget we race for fun.

this is my :twocents: on the matter.
mike schell

[Custom Works RC]

The expert driver list for the open wheel race is comprised of racers who have proven they can compete in the modified and open classes at the open wheel race. It would be difficult to enforce that philosiphy at a local level all the time but I really believe if it was implemented at more of the larger events ie: Feb Freeze, Tour races etc. it would likely alleviate some of the issues described here. But thats just my opinion and I could be wrong.

[Smokinnitro]

I think the real problem lies with the fast guy. there has been many times i've had problems with lap cars, but very seldum do i think the guy wrecked me on purpose. and while i'm not completely inosent when it comes to keeping my mouth shut on the stand [in the heat of the moment], more times than not i will apologize to the racer who wrecked me shortly after the race when i cool off. i don't want to sound like a preecher but some people seem to forget we race for fun.

this is my :twocents: on the matter.
mike schell

Mike I know I have gotten in your way while running EDM. Not once have you yelled or even gottn upset. I wanna to thank you for that.

[Matt Murphy]

I agree with Rob. Now I am not saying that I would even be up front in the limited or 13.5 classes, but I have never been allowed to race them because of the expert driver list. When I attend the bigger shows, I use the same mindset and avoid limited classes. I know some expert drivers love the limited classes, but I really feel that limited and 13.5 classes should be seen as stock, and open and modified should be like the mod classes of years ago.

Here is the controversial part of my opinion... Once you have shown you can run at a certain level, enough to make the list, you should want to accept that honor and run the big dog classes. I do not like the idea of PRO-LEVEL Drivers running stock or limited. Likewise, at the big shows, such as open wheel, you can have a qualifying system for the open/modified classes such as ROAR/IFMAR use for the World championships. A-Main drivers in Open/Modified from 2nd tier big races and regional events qualify for the faster classes at open wheel.....likewise, if you are not on the list, and have not run qualifier events, you could make drivers prove their speed in the 13.5/Limited class. I know this is where guys are gonna flame me....LOL. But one reason limited and 13.5 classes run similar lap counts to open cars, is the guys that get in the way in open classes....

For weekly shows, I do not suggest using the list. But for the premier events... where we already turn away entries due to time and space limitations, this could be done and could work well.

Dirty One - I too am on the list, you can race in 5 classes at open wheel, not 2... I run all 5 they let me run.

Matt

[wlambert2]

I think there should be a rule in the Open Classes that a driver must be able to somewhat keep up with other cars in that class. I recently raced and won my heats by 15 laps. It is very hard to race with cars that are that far off the pace. It is also running other racers off. If i were that far off the pace or my car was that bad i would pull off. I want to see everyone have a chance to race. I think some should run a limited class. Thanks Steve


I have a question for ya:

Did or do you try to help the other "drivers" get better?

From the way you talk I would have to say the answer is NO.
If that is the case, then live with it. Or step up and help your fellow racer improve!:skull:

[DUBES]

the expert driver list for the open wheel race is comprised of racers who have proven they can compete in the modified and open classes at the open wheel race. It would be difficult to enforce that philosiphy at a local level all the time but i really believe if it was implemented at more of the larger events ie: Feb freeze, tour races etc. It would likely alleviate some of the issues described here. But thats just my opinion and i could be wrong.

agreed with 50%, if you are gonna stop a guy from "dropping down", it is only fair to stop a guy from "moving up" before he is ready by some standard.


I enjoy racing the "dogs", you do learn to race better, you establish relationships with them and they help you out. But i also think there are some good points to be made for skill determining what class you race.

[Custom Works RC]

agreed with 50%, if you are gonna stop a guy from "dropping down", it is only fair to stop a guy from "moving up" before he is ready by some standard.

You cant keep a guy from "moving up" based off of that list until the list has ample drivers on it to be a large enough field for the open classes. Right now it is a list of guys who cant race down, but it could be switched to be a list "these drivers only" in the open classes if it gets big enough.

[kerstetter]

I think you could make 1 just base it off the laps you did at the last open wheel if you did a certain amount of laps you would be eligible for the open class's if not you stay down in stock You cant keep a guy from "moving up" based off of that list until the list has ample drivers on it to be a large enough field for the open classes. Right now it is a list of guys who cant race down, but it could be switched to be a list "these drivers only" in the open classes if it gets big enough.

[AscotConversion]

Here is the controversial part of my opinion... Once you have shown you can run at a certain level, enough to make the list, you should want to accept that honor and run the big dog classes. I do not like the idea of PRO-LEVEL Drivers running stock or limited.

Matt

Hear, hear!

[Matt Murphy]

Ascot - Does that mean you agree or disagree? LOL...

[bumps and jumps rc]

I think what works for the open wheel - or any other large race may not work for a weekly crowd.
Here locally I think we could eliminate open late model and limited sprint on a weekly basis (don't be surprised if I post this question closer to fall) and it might actually help the turnout.
It is much easier for people to get excited when racing against 30 other people instead of 3, and it may be that level of excitement that makes people want to come every week to race.

[Rcer19]

i think that 1 of the things being overlooked is terminology and mindset,
Whenever someone is in an accident the 1st words out of their mouth is, "i was taken out". 99% of the time thats bullcrap, I never hear any of you guys say "we got together" !!!!!!!! It's always, he took me out. LEARN THE DIFFERENCE,
If your a good racer, you will know the differance,
As for the Limited classes being compared to stock, i would almost agree with that, and if i am not mistaken i have always felt that if you won a stock class at the open Wheel race it was more prestigious than a mod class because of the handout motors, and all that went into getting the most out of the stock motors and having your car setup right and you drove your best 4 minutes as consistant as possible,

[Dan D]

after reading this thread. i think people are missing the point! the track owner/director needs to take responsibility and control the loose cannons. the classes are already thinning down as it is, instead of eliminating classes the tracks should be trying to get those cars that are sitting on shelves out on the tracks.....payouts, gift certificates, ???? on a weekly basis there is someone that is pissed off for one reason or another. and as for the question about why everyone is running late models, well put fenders on it and over drive it and let the demo derby begin.

[Matt Murphy]

I agree with nick and chris and dan....

It is very difficult to win "stock or limited", and it is definitely more difficult to do so, as your stuff has to be that much better.... and your driving has to be perfect. But I think the top guys should race the faster classes, not the slower ones.

There is absolutely nothing good about offering more than 5 or 6 classes for weekly racing. Why do we need 12 classes? So 12 people can feel good about beating 4 or 5 guys? Too many classes = many diluted classes.

EDM racing is dead. I enjoy racing EDM, Nitro and electric. However I only race EDM's at the big shows, once MAYBE twice a year since 2002. I have raced and EDM maybe 20 times in my life. They only exist in the Northeast. Will this class be around in a year or 2???

Late Model Destruction Derby class is super popular, and I am not sure why. I have not been in a clean Late model heat or in the last 3 years at open wheel(again the only oppurtunity I have to race these cars). Put quarter panels on the cars and everybody abuses everyone else.

Matt

[Rcer19]

i know a few years ago when i was calling and running the races at Newville i started to take charge of the races more, By that i mean if someone was out of control, or having some trouble, i would warn them 1 time to get it under control, and the 2nd time i would make them pull it, By staying out there they are not doing themselves any good or their fellow racers any good either, and if a guy is out there and spins out evry 3 or 4 laps, he is gonna get disgusted and frustrated anyway, Then when i had a chance i would go try to help them,
Helping someone out is a nice gesture, but there are a few things to look at 1st, watch the guy driving, see if it is him, if it is, kindly give a few pointers, usually the biggest problem with a guy who is struggling is that he drives it into the corner to deep. point it out to him, them have him take a couple laps and Then try to adjust the car,

[Matt Murphy]

Once again, I agree with nick.....

Imagine that! One of the first guys to help me at my first trip back east, and I still like the guy alot, and agree with him! Not that I was out of control, I was just out to lunch.... Showing up to Kranzel's with CW Green compound tires ungrooved made everyone laugh. Nick handed me a set of pinks, trued, grooved, and gojo'ed in a baggy. Bolted them on and went from 35th qualifier to the back of the A! Thanks again Nick! If not for the help I received from you, Phil Cooper, Phil Davis, Lyndon Thompson, and Frenchie, I would not be racing today!!!

[Matt Murphy]

Couldnt remember his name....but Jeff Rupert helped me a ton also!

Matt

[terry14]

helping a guy out is key (thank you jeff cisney). without that people quit eventually. please keep in mind we are running timed laps with eight cars on the track. that is a bad combination. unless it is a main IT IS NOT RACING, it is a timed race. you are not racing the other guy, you are turning laps. the nature of this type of race breeds problems with mismatched racers. helping a guy will eventually make him better. untill then it is what it is. thats why mains are USUALY cleaner than heats. the only way to weed out the croud is individual time trials prior to heats.

[Smokinnitro]

and as for the question about why everyone is running late models, well put fenders on it and over drive it and let the demo derby begin.

I agree!!! the LLM class with the exception of the a-mains ( good drivers) they are just 1 big demo derby.

[Dan D]

i know a few years ago when i was calling and running the races at Newville i started to take charge of the races more, By that i mean if someone was out of control, or having some trouble, i would warn them 1 time to get it under control, and the 2nd time i would make them pull it, By staying out there they are not doing themselves any good or their fellow racers any good either, and if a guy is out there and spins out evry 3 or 4 laps, he is gonna get disgusted and frustrated anyway, Then when i had a chance i would go try to help them,
Helping someone out is a nice gesture, but there are a few things to look at 1st, watch the guy driving, see if it is him, if it is, kindly give a few pointers, usually the biggest problem with a guy who is struggling is that he drives it into the corner to deep. point it out to him, them have him take a couple laps and Then try to adjust the car,

i agree :thumbsup::thumbsup: and thats what i was talking about in the earlier post. i have helped and tried to help many people.......but some people dont want help! i also notice that some people are early to the races and never practice to get there cars or driving better.

[DaBearsNo13]

Late Model Destruction Derby class is super popular, and I am not sure why. I have not been in a clean Late model heat or in the last 3 years at open wheel(again the only oppurtunity I have to race these cars). Put quarter panels on the cars and everybody abuses everyone else.

Matt[/quote]


My bad! This year you can punt my car around the track! ;)

[Rcer19]

i have to admit that you guys calling the LM and LLM class a destruction derby is a welcome surprise, Phil Cooper, Myself, Brock and a few others have been watching the class for a few months now and we have all been saying the same thing, there has not been 1 clean or reasonably clean race in months,
Matt, thanks for the compliments i do appreciate it, You have turned into one hell of a wheel man, keep up the good work
Terry Mealy-- you are right that we are running "timed" races, but still ALOT of guys do not get it, when a faster guy is coming up to lap them, the lose their mind!!! they wanna stay on the lead lap so bad and for what?
I try and explain it to guys who do not get it this way. What is the lesser of 2 evils? holding up someone and then getting run into and crashed and take that guy with you and have him mad at you and lose say 4 to 6 or 8 seconds to be marshalled, or just moving over and letting him go, and lose ,say 1/10th or 2?
And if you stop to think about it, when you get crashed, how many times are you right back in front of the same guy after being marshalled? so what did you gain?

[Dan D]

i have to admit that you guys calling the LM and LLM class a destruction derby is a welcome surprise, Phil Cooper, Myself, Brock and a few others have been watching the class for a few months now and we have all been saying the same thing, there has not been 1 clean or reasonably clean race in months,
Matt, thanks for the compliments i do appreciate it, You have turned into one hell of a wheel man, keep up the good work
Terry Mealy-- you are right that we are running "timed" races, but still ALOT of guys do not get it, when a faster guy is coming up to lap them, the lose their mind!!! they wanna stay on the lead lap so bad and for what?
I try and explain it to guys who do not get it this way. What is the lesser of 2 evils? holding up someone and then getting run into and crashed and take that guy with you and have him mad at you and lose say 4 to 6 or 8 seconds to be marshalled, or just moving over and letting him go, and lose ,say 1/10th or 2?
And if you stop to think about it, when you get crashed, how many times are you right back in front of the same guy after being marshalled? so what did you gain?

again :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[mjsmotorsports]

After reading threw the posts here I think courtesy is the key . Like Nick said most new guys or the out of control guys need to see or realize that causing wrecks or incidents does not benefit them or anyone else. I believe that some guys simply run certain classes because that is the equipment they have or as stated before the least amount of entrys.They want track time thats all. The pro list or whatever it is termed works for the big races although for weekly shows maybe not.
Getting back to the courtesy thing , no one wants to get broke , or ruin a good run by getting into someone ,if we help the guys or girls we can with there setups and give tips here and there on driving techniques thats all you can do. Trying to create classes for the beginners sounds good but only keeps dividing the classes.
On a side note I would rather get together with a racer who is not trying to wreck me just made a mistake than getting run over by a good driver that drove threw me when they were trying to win from 5 laps down when I am running in second :rolleyes:

[microracer25]

Can someone help me? I am slow and out of control :confused:

[brockh]

Can someone help me? I am slow and out of control :confused:
welcome to the club!

[cj funk]

WOW my head is spinnig, just like politics it is a circle of issues if you let it become that. Sorry fellows it will always be something. To me trucks are for the beginner. Also we all can get carried away with our driving THATS RACING, but like riding a bike we can become better at defensive and patience driving. Do you guys think that kyle bush should not race bush or trucks sinse he has become so good. If you luv the sport as i do you just get over the ssssii that happens. Look to the next week of fun weather you are first or last thats just racin; remember not everyone will be curtius just remember THAT

Anyway racin is rubbin hope not to offend anyone we all have different perceptions but if we luv rcin GO WITH THE FLOW:thumbsup::checkeredflag:

[mikeschellracing]

as far as clean racing goes there hasn't been alot of that in any class. the nitro edm races at the staubs champs were just ugly. on the other side of the coin i ran all three olm mains completely clean. not a mark on the car.

as far as getting more racers to the track? i think the tracks should keep entry fee's as low as possible, even if it means no payback. in most cases a payback only helps a few guys. the guys it helps are your veteran or sponserd drivers. not to say these guys can't use the money, etc. but it won't keep them from racing. but on the other hand, the new guy who is there just to have some fun, should have to pay a higher entry fee so he can race. i say we race for fun. paybacks only hurt attendance !! its kinda like the bully saying you gotta buy him a ice cream to sit at his lunch table[not that i would know anything about that]. now i know someone will say why are the money races the largest attended races then. a few money races a year work just fine. but i'm not going to pay 15-20 dollars per car every week. i will simply pick and choose when i race.

anyone else care to give there opinions??

[padale70]

I am still fairly new to this sport so maybe i don't have the "right" to post on this thread but most of the people i see posting on here are vetran racer and guys that I have a lot of respect for and "look up to". Having said that here is two cents from a guy that has only been doing this for about a year. People are going to race where the car count is better because as stated before racing the same 3 or 4 people all the time is more like practice but if you are one of the elite drivers runing a limited class keep in mind that you are racing people not of your caliber and deal with some of the rookie mistakes guys are gonna make there is no doubt that some of the new guys need to be taught a little better driver conduct but instead of pissing and moaning tell them what they are doing wrong remember they are spending thier money to grow this sport also. as far as the loose cannons go i think track owners/race directors need to have a greater hand in getting them of the track if you see someone out to lunch make them pull it or pull it for them. that may make some of these people that get there car out 6 times a year and throw it on the track and hope for the best, work to get better because as you vetrans know it takes more than an hour of wheel time a year to become a good wheelman as far as payouts go i do understand the point on benefits certian people more but, it also gives us something more to shoot its just to bad that when prizes are involed a lot of people seem to forget they are adults. Lower entry fees help everyone out but the also hurt attendace without having payouts because there is no insentive to go race well remember this is just the thoughts of a guy trying to make the elite drivers list.

[Matt Murphy]

Call me crazy, but I hate the idea of payouts. We race approximately $1000 toy cars, with little consequence... basically we can drive wooded into the corner and steer full lock right, and make break a few parts, but we do not get hurt. Knowing that, most all of us get in over our heads sometimes. Add some good ol' american green to the mix, and things can and will get ugly. You mean all i gotta do is beat that car in front of me(which I cannot pass clean) and I will get some cash?!?! Bam, there goes my front end into his rear end... Yay I made 10 bucks! And helped get rid of another racer due to ugly driving. We have had several $100 to win races at my old local track (been paved since :-( ) and every single one had great driving for 3 minutes and 55 seconds..... then came the money lap, and bam, one pissed off guy with a broken car and a 35 dollar bill to fix his car and the other guy bragging about winning the cash. Lets pay the guys who already are getting a deal on their stuff!!! That makes alot of sense.

I was fortunate enough to win Nitro EDM at Open Wheel this past year. I forgot there was a winners purse. I went to accept my trophy, and was like, "Whats in the envelope?". I do not like money as a motivator in toy car racing.

I have been approached about an 1/8th LM race with a guaranteed $5,000 purse for the A-Main. $200 to start the A-Main. $2,000 to the Winner. Although I would like a shot to win any race with the best in the country, I do not like the idea of racing for money. If I take out someone for the win, I could pay a mortgage payment with the winnings!!!... anytime that thought "COULD" go through someones mind is a bad situation. These are toy cars, racing for money is bad in my opinion.

If a company wants to sponsor a racer to use their products, and award contingency money for their results..... thats their prerogative. I am OK with that... but races with cash prizes just seem to breed problems.

OK....Flame Retardant Suit is on!!! Fire away!

Matt

[signman501]

I have to agree with Matt. I'm not for racng for money. Been there, done that with real cars. My brother was a professional racer for several years but that was with a real car with real high dollar parts and he was the driver making it happen. These little cars aren't there by a long shot. In the past 5 or 6 years that I have been doing this I still haven't spent as much money as I did on the last motor I built for may last drag car. It still is a hobby and if you carry all your stuff in the trunk of your car you don't need to race for money.

I'm ducking for cover now. :twocents:

[BOOSIER RACING TIRES]

Call me crazy, but I hate the idea of payouts. We race approximately $1000 toy cars, with little consequence... basically we can drive wooded into the corner and steer full lock right, and make break a few parts, but we do not get hurt. Knowing that, most all of us get in over our heads sometimes. Add some good ol' american green to the mix, and things can and will get ugly. You mean all i gotta do is beat that car in front of me(which I cannot pass clean) and I will get some cash?!?! Bam, there goes my front end into his rear end... Yay I made 10 bucks! And helped get rid of another racer due to ugly driving. We have had several $100 to win races at my old local track (been paved since :-( ) and every single one had great driving for 3 minutes and 55 seconds..... then came the money lap, and bam, one pissed off guy with a broken car and a 35 dollar bill to fix his car and the other guy bragging about winning the cash. Lets pay the guys who already are getting a deal on their stuff!!! That makes alot of sense.

I was fortunate enough to win Nitro EDM at Open Wheel this past year. I forgot there was a winners purse. I went to accept my trophy, and was like, "Whats in the envelope?". I do not like money as a motivator in toy car racing.

I have been approached about an 1/8th LM race with a guaranteed $5,000 purse for the A-Main. $200 to start the A-Main. $2,000 to the Winner. Although I would like a shot to win any race with the best in the country, I do not like the idea of racing for money. If I take out someone for the win, I could pay a mortgage payment with the winnings!!!... anytime that thought "COULD" go through someones mind is a bad situation. These are toy cars, racing for money is bad in my opinion.

If a company wants to sponsor a racer to use their products, and award contingency money for their results..... thats their prerogative. I am OK with that... but races with cash prizes just seem to breed problems.

OK....Flame Retardant Suit is on!!! Fire away!

Matt


I agree 100% with Matt, everything that went down at Staubs last year w/Logan was the end result of a cash race, no good can come from racing for cash. Whatever happened to racing our cars because we love to race ?

[padale70]

I agree 100% with Matt, everything that went down at Staubs last year w/Logan was the end result of a cash race, no good can come from racing for cash. Whatever happened to racing our cars because we love to race ?

Call me crazy, but I hate the idea of payouts. We race approximately $1000 toy cars, with little consequence... basically we can drive wooded into the corner and steer full lock right, and make break a few parts, but we do not get hurt. Knowing that, most all of us get in over our heads sometimes. Add some good ol' american green to the mix, and things can and will get ugly. You mean all i gotta do is beat that car in front of me(which I cannot pass clean) and I will get some cash?!?! Bam, there goes my front end into his rear end... Yay I made 10 bucks! And helped get rid of another racer due to ugly driving. We have had several $100 to win races at my old local track (been paved since :-( ) and every single one had great driving for 3 minutes and 55 seconds..... then came the money lap, and bam, one pissed off guy with a broken car and a 35 dollar bill to fix his car and the other guy bragging about winning the cash. Lets pay the guys who already are getting a deal on their stuff!!! That makes alot of sense.

I was fortunate enough to win Nitro EDM at Open Wheel this past year. I forgot there was a winners purse. I went to accept my trophy, and was like, "Whats in the envelope?". I do not like money as a motivator in toy car racing.

I have been approached about an 1/8th LM race with a guaranteed $5,000 purse for the A-Main. $200 to start the A-Main. $2,000 to the Winner. Although I would like a shot to win any race with the best in the country, I do not like the idea of racing for money. If I take out someone for the win, I could pay a mortgage payment with the winnings!!!... anytime that thought "COULD" go through someones mind is a bad situation. These are toy cars, racing for money is bad in my opinion.

If a company wants to sponsor a racer to use their products, and award contingency money for their results..... thats their prerogative. I am OK with that... but races with cash prizes just seem to breed problems.

OK....Flame Retardant Suit is on!!! Fire away!

Matt



its a shame that adults racing thier r/c cars can't remember that we started doing this for the fun the payout is just a bouns i have never won any type of payout for racing r/c cars so i don't know,but there are a lot of people that invest a lot of money and time in to these purpose built cars and if we ALL could be a little more grown up it would work fine. I guess i should have put my flame retardent suit on because out of my whole post one or two lines is getting picked out LOL

[Matt Murphy]

PADALE - We are not pickin on you personally... some areas always have done payouts. I do not think it is a positive thing for the racing personally. Lower the entry fees, and race for fun, respect, comeraderie, and the thrill of competition!

Or...heres an idea! Let the track owner make a little more money, so we can ensure we have a place to race next week, month, year!!!

Matt

[BOOSIER RACING TIRES]

PADALE - We are not pickin on you personally... some areas always have done payouts. I do not think it is a positive thing for the racing personally. Lower the entry fees, and race for fun, respect, comeraderie, and the thrill of competition!

Or...heres an idea! Let the track owner make a little more money, so we can ensure we have a place to race next week, month, year!!!

Matt


Race day = $12-$15 entry fee, what other form of amusement/entertainment can you do that will cost you less than $2/hr. Race days are usually no less than 8-10 hours, again I agree w/Matt the track owners need to stay in business......

[BEACHNUTTZ]

I agree!!! the LLM class with the exception of the a-mains ( good drivers) they are just 1 big demo derby.

I will third it and the LLM A's are not always clean either!

[dirty one]

I will third it and the LLM A's are not always clean either!


beach you dont know what you are talking about just like me. i dont know anything. we are just older guys that play with toy cars. hope to see you soon bud. miss trading paint with you.


dirty one

[BEACHNUTTZ]

beach you dont know what you are talking about just like me. i dont know anything. we are just older guys that play with toy cars. hope to see you soon bud. miss trading paint with you.


dirty one

Just talked about a PA roadtrip today with the Miss's

[Rob Cutman]

I have run a lot of races over the years, some that paid hundreds of dollars and some that paid nothing. My mindset during the race has never been any different regardless of what the payout is. I have been more determined to win some races over others but my motivation was based soley on the size, stature, or magnitude of the event and not how much it paid to win. As PADALE said to me the payout is just a bonus.

[peanutsprint9]

its a shame that adults racing thier r/c cars can't remember that we started doing this for the fun the payout is just a bouns i have never won any type of payout for racing r/c cars so i don't know,but there are a lot of people that invest a lot of money and time in to these purpose built cars and if we ALL could be a little more grown up it would work fine. I guess i should have put my flame retardent suit on because out of my whole post one or two lines is getting picked out LOL


Ditto!!!

[Jason Smith]

I have run a lot of races over the years, some that paid hundreds of dollars and some that paid nothing. My mindset during the race has never been any different regardless of what the payout is. I have been more determined to win some races over others but my motivation was based soley on the size, stature, or magnitude of the event and not how much it paid to win. As PADALE said to me the payout is just a bonus.

Rob, I agree that we all should go into any race with the same mindset and do the best we can. I have run in a few money races myself and I would like to think that I drive the same reguardless of whats on line, but not everyone shows the same class.

Here is an example......a track that I raced at saturday nights frequently, held a supposed big race with money on the line. I believe the payout was 40 bucks with an entry fee of 25. The cars that showed up were the same that raced every week (no out of towners) There was generally clean racing in the A mains, but not on this night it was absolutely the worst race I have ever taken part in. At least 4 cars in the main were broke mine was nearly destoyed because everyone needed that 15 bucks:confused: That wont even cover your tire bill for the main! I think the Open Wheel is an ok platform for payouts because it's a different level of competition, but at a local level in my opinion it has no place. I say we just keep racing for bowling trophies:checkeredflag:

Just my .02
________
N02 VAPORIZER (http://no2vaporizers.com)

[peanutsprint9]

I would just like to state to the "R/C Community" that my post above where I agreed with Padale's post was not...I repeat NOT aimed at any one individual like some people are choosing to believe. I in no way attempted to offend anyone by agreeing with a post that simply states that "everyone" should be more adult when choosing to race with their toy cars.

Now I know why I don't bother posting on here much.

Thanks
Rick Murray

[screamingeagle]

Can someone help me? I am slow and out of control :confused:
hey speaking of slow and out of control where is the pictures of the new baby?

[microracer25]

hey speaking of slow and out of control where is the pictures of the new baby?


Send me a PM with your e-maill address, and I will send you some.