10.5 Electric LM/Sprint Commentary

[K Stevens]

With some questions coming up about the 10.5 electric classes, and some guys who may be used to running other motors in their electric cars, I posted the following commentary on another board and I thought I would do the same here...my reason is for people to have a different view of these classes, and to understand that just because the class is called "10.5" it doesn't mean you have to run a 10.5 motor:

Just wanted to add a comment about questions regarding the 13.5 vs. 10.5 motor issue in the electric classes (http://www.rcracing.com/msgthread.cfm?threadid=56629&InfoID=282&SiteMessages=135#). In my opinion, these electric classes remind me of the old school modified classes from the 80's and 90's. Back then, "Modified" had no motor limits, but each racer chose the motor that best suited their own setup and preference. Some guys may run 12 turn motors, but others would go with a 15 turn motor and they were all still competitive. I think these electric classes in the series will be similar, as I doubt that any of the tracks being run will allow full use of 10.5 power, and you may find that some of the "faster" cars will be running less motor or de-tuned speed controls.

The reason for this post is to let anyone who is currently running 13.5 motors in their sprint cars or latemodels that you shouldn't be scared off by the 10.5 motors...fact is, I think you may find that some 13.5 powered cars in this series just may surprise you. After all, you don't need a big block to go fast on a 1/4 mile dirt track when a solid 350 will do just fine. Bring out those 13.5 cars and have fun!!!

[Matt Murphy]

Kevin,

I strongly agree with you....

Matt

[PBR Allstar]

I'll be running 13.5 for just about everything, I have 10.5's in my two direct drive cars, but I don't run them at full wick.

[ezimmerman]

I have a CW DD enforcer. I have been running the Mamba Max 6900, with a 96/12 gearing (48p). I am switching to a Novak 13.5 so I am looking for a starting spot for gearing?? Right now I left the 96 in there (I mean come on it's a pain in the rear to change that out pun intended) and I bumped up to a 22 pinion. That gives me a gear ratio of about 4.3...

Just looking for a good starting point since I won't be coming down till Saturday morning so I'd like to be as close as possible on set up.

Thanks

[K Stevens]

I have a CW DD enforcer. I have been running the Mamba Max 6900, with a 96/12 gearing (48p). I am switching to a Novak 13.5 so I am looking for a starting spot for gearing?? Right now I left the 96 in there (I mean come on it's a pain in the rear to change that out pun intended) and I bumped up to a 22 pinion. That gives me a gear ratio of about 4.3...

Just looking for a good starting point since I won't be coming down till Saturday morning so I'd like to be as close as possible on set up.

Thanks

Matt previously gave some gearing starting points, and I am using his calculations roughly for my starting point on my GBX Enforcer. Based on his prior calculations, and a quick rollout transfer to a DD setup, I would start at around an 18 tooth pinion with a 13.5. This is not a definite gear, but a semi-educated and thought out guess.

[Matt Murphy]

96 spur, 18 or 19 pinion, depending on timing....

Matt

[emmettracing#1]

if you guys have the 10.5 I would advise you to run them! The track is hooked up and is 200 feet of run line!! Just my thoughts

[Matt Murphy]

I have a 13.5 in my Late Model... and it will stay in there all weekend. Not saying you cant go faster down the straights with a 10.5, just saying, overall laps are what count. More power = harder to drive. Less power = more control... I will try and prove my theory of control over power this weekend....

Bring whatever winds you want....10.5, 13.5, 17.5 or 21.5...... but Most Importantly, HAVE FUN! Thats why we play with our toy cars.

Matt

[Tim Copp]

I have a 13.5 in my Late Model... and it will stay in there all weekend. Not saying you cant go faster down the straights with a 10.5, just saying, overall laps are what count. More power = harder to drive. Less power = more control... I will try and prove my theory of control over power this weekend....

Bring whatever winds you want....10.5, 13.5, 17.5 or 21.5...... but Most Importantly, HAVE FUN! Thats why we play with our toy cars.

Matt

Matt after letting the smoke out in my 10.5 in the 1st round and on a 63 lap pace I drop down to a 13.5 for round 2 and put it in the 4th starting spot I was going to put a new 10.5 in for main as the temp went down but with the scoring isuses and pitting for Jason and Roland I did not have time to switch over so I put one more gear on the car and let it go I had good corner speed but Alan would pull me a few feet on the stright I could of put one more gear in it. I am going to keep my 13.5 in the car for Rescue to start.

[Matt Murphy]

Sooooo, guys for the record, Tim won 10.5 Sprint with a 13.5, and I ran 4th in 10.5 LM with a 13.5....

Not too shabby!

[K Stevens]

Sooooo, guys for the record, Tim won 10.5 Sprint with a 13.5, and I ran 4th in 10.5 LM with a 13.5....

Not too shabby!

Also, Dave Barber TQed 10.5 Latemodel with a 13.5. I also had a 13.5 in my sprint car and bumped from the B to the A and ran on the lead lap until a late crash knocked me out of contention.

[Butch Clay]

So are these 13.5's with programmable timing speed controls or straight up GTB non programmable speed controls? Yeah I have a Tekin with a 13.5 that can be as fast as my GTB with a 10.5, but I'm on the edge of smoking a motor. Done a couple already going through the learning curve. Shoot, I had a 2 minute rocket ship 13.5 one night, too bad it was a 4 minute race. We are going to look back on this era someday and say, "what were we thinking". Kevin was right in his original post, we need to evolve brushless into "stock" and modified what ever that means and let the traction, driver skill dictate what motor/speed control to run. If you can't tell, this is a sore subject to me.

[Matt Murphy]

For the record, Dave Barber and Kevin Stevens had timing advance Speed Controls. Tim Copp and I did not. I burned down a few motors without them, so its not just the ESC's causing problems.

The timing boost ESC's require much less gear. So people be aware of your gearing when you try these modes.

Matt

[gatepro]

I ran a 10.5 all weekend, because it was what Ford was nice enough to loan me. The car was a bullet, until it overheated and went into failsafe LOL(twice). dropped one tooth and it never overheated again but was no where near the pace with the other gear. Seems a 13.5 with a good gear would produce a better result, same speed less heat??? just a thought.

[Tim Copp]

For the record, Dave Barber and Kevin Stevens had timing advance Speed Controls. Tim Copp and I did not. I burned down a few motors without them, so its not just the ESC's causing problems.

The timing boost ESC's require much less gear. So people be aware of your gearing when you try these modes.

Matt

Matts right I ran a KO BMC esc, you can advance timing but only 6% Thats all and its does it from the 1st pull all the way thru. I had mine set at 2% Its just like moving the timming on the motor once its set it done unlike a Tekin thats changes timming 3 ways. I just missed the gearing on the 10.5 in the heat of the day Not thinking right as most dirt tracks don't get that mutch heat in them. When I run 1/12 and TC cars we temp the track and I did not even think to do that as I was drit racing My mastake I bet that teack got to 150+ on Saturday when you get temps like that you need to drop gears. The only Track I see a tekin might do good at is BRC but I did TQ last time I was there with My KO

Also if anyones need A Ko or Tekin esc programed I alway have my laptop with both hookups with me at the track.

[Tim Copp]

So are these 13.5's with programmable timing speed controls or straight up GTB non programmable speed controls? Yeah I have a Tekin with a 13.5 that can be as fast as my GTB with a 10.5, but I'm on the edge of smoking a motor. Done a couple already going through the learning curve. Shoot, I had a 2 minute rocket ship 13.5 one night, too bad it was a 4 minute race. We are going to look back on this era someday and say, "what were we thinking". Kevin was right in his original post, we need to evolve brushless into "stock" and modified what ever that means and let the traction, driver skill dictate what motor/speed control to run. If you can't tell, this is a sore subject to me.

I am with Butch on this I have bought more Blushless motors in the last year then I have in the last 4 snice they came out for cars, I have delt with Blushless for a lot longer working with Heli and Plane guys when I was in Dallas. Butch I running a KO esc no advancing timing in it. I had a rocket for 4:30 but it was a 5 min race

Running at K&C I think a snigle cell 13.5 class would be perfect for that size track with all the new ESc out I will try it one day there. Also don't be to surprize to see this at Bigger races soon as the alphalt guys allready have a single cell class.

[K Stevens]

Both of my cars had Mamba Max Pros, and Dave had the Tekin RS Pro. To be honest, this was the first race weekend I have ever used these types speed controls, and I still have a lot to learn but I think I got pretty close to the right setup on my latemodel. As for the sprint car, I fought handling all weekend and never got a chance to do much electronics tuning. I do know that both cars ran strong for the full five minutes of the races with little to no falloff. The hottest I got the 10.5 motor all weekend was 170, and the 13.5 came off the track cold every run. I am sold on these speed controls, as they can even make a washed up has-been usta-could like me fast. If anyone is using the mamba max pro, I will gladly send you a copy of the speed control settings I used for both cars at this race. The settings may not be the best, but I think they are a good starting point to work from.

[K Stevens]

For the record, Dave Barber and Kevin Stevens had timing advance Speed Controls. Tim Copp and I did not. I burned down a few motors without them, so its not just the ESC's causing problems.

The timing boost ESC's require much less gear. So people be aware of your gearing when you try these modes.

Matt

How I would explain the gearing is that you set everything up based on what your timing is when it is maxed out on the top end. I geared both of my cars based on the starting point gears Matt gave everyone for 10.5 and 13.5 before the race. I stayed with the same gearing all weekend, and the only change I made all weekend was to take about 5 degrees of timing advance out of both cars after Friday practice.

My cars were geared as follows:

Sprint Car - Novak Ballistic 13.5, motor timing at "N" with 26 degrees of timing advance in the ESC - Gearing was 44/100 which was around 1.70 rollout

Latemodel - Novak Ballistic 10.5, motor timing at "N" with 22 degrees of timing advance in the ESC - Gearing was 104/43 which was around 1.60 rollout

The timing boost activation range on both was around 7,000 rpm on the bottom and 13,000 rpm on the top. In my opinion, getting this range right is the key to managing your motor temps.

I believe I could have been a little more aggressive with the sprint car, but the latemodel was pretty close.

I hope that sharing this info may help some of you guys out that are still struggling with this new technology. I am still learning myself, but I want you all to learn along with me.

[Butch Clay]

Thanks Kevin for your honesty on your settings. I'm on my 3rd or 4th iteration of parameters with my 13.5 Tekin SC setup and are close to what you have on timing. My latest rpm range is 5000 on the bottom (or what ever the Hotwire calculates) and 20,000 on the top end, which gives a more gently timing slope. I played with gearing the last time I ran it until I got motor temp to run around 140. I think if you have a motor coming off at 170 you are on the teeter totter of frying one.
At the end of the day though, I/we could be running a simple straight up non adjustable speed control with a slightly lower number motor and have the same speed. I was running a GTB with a 10.5 and using half throttle. We were forced to go to 13.5 motors to slow us down, which it did, I went to using full throttle. Then the programmable SC thing comes along and I now had to buy one of those to keep up. In the process of learning I have smoked 2 stators so far. I can afford the $400 I have spent so far so that's no problem. But I don't know that the newbies can or will want to afford it. Not to mention the need for a laptop to take to the track. This whole thing is not good for the long term health of this sport. And I do not believe that racers in general will show their cards on SC set up like you have. I feel compelled to tell others my set up because I like helping others and I like the competition. They still got to outdrive me, which is how it should be.

[PBR Allstar]

Kevin, I ordered a MMP last night. I'll probably shake it down once at K&C before the Bako race. I also have a new (I'm calling it the thrid gen) direct drive chassis in the works, as I'm finding that I really need a bit more weight on the RF tire. I'm having to do too much chassis tuning that I know is fundamentally wrong, in order to make the car roll the center of the corner like I want it too.

[Bullhead57]

Thanks Kevin,

I am running the Mamba Max Pro with a Tekin 10,5 and struggled with speed and heat this weekend, no speed and alot of heat. I am very new to this brushless stuff and was afraid to mess with any timing in the motor. The car was hooked up just could not excelarate off the turns with no speed at the end.

Thanks again i was just about to buy a Tekin speedo because i know alot of guys are running it and thought there would be more help with it.

Pete Liles

[ezimmerman]

I ran (am running) a Novak Havok 13.5 at CVR, so I don't have all those fancy settings available. However the straight away speed felt OK. I struggles with set up as I got there Saturday morning and 2 laps into my only practice session I lost a servo. So my car had the worst push I have ever experienced!!! But I got it freed up enough by the "C" main to transfer up to the B. With Rescue being a longer track it will be interesting to see how the 13.5 holds up.

BTW my "normal" speed control is a mamba max 6900 so I am use to a LOT more power then the 13.5...

PBR I really need to get over and see your car and pick your brains about the DD sprint car. I always feel like I am on an island when it comes to set up, and everything else with the car!!!

[e46rosco]

How I would explain the gearing is that you set everything up based on what your timing is when it is maxed out on the top end. I geared both of my cars based on the starting point gears Matt gave everyone for 10.5 and 13.5 before the race. I stayed with the same gearing all weekend, and the only change I made all weekend was to take about 5 degrees of timing advance out of both cars after Friday practice.

My cars were geared as follows:

Sprint Car - Novak Ballistic 13.5, motor timing at "0" with 26 degrees of timing advance in the ESC - Gearing was 44/100 which was around 1.70 rollout

Latemodel - Novak Ballistic 10.5, motor timing at "0" with 22 degrees of timing advance in the ESC - Gearing was 104/43 which was around 1.60 rollout

The timing boost activation range on both was around 7,000 rpm on the bottom and 13,000 rpm on the top. In my opinion, getting this range right is the key to managing your motor temps.

I believe I could have been a little more aggressive with the sprint car, but the latemodel was pretty close.

I hope that sharing this info may help some of you guys out that are still struggling with this new technology. I am still learning myself, but I want you all to learn along with me.



hi keven
i have a question . when you say you set the endbell timming to " 0 " are you talking about the [ N ] on the endbell . novak ballistic motors are set to the [ N ] is = to 30 degrees . or are you turning the endball down pass the neg [ -] to set to " 0 " ? ?

[K Stevens]

Now that I look closely at the endbell, I am set at the "N". I guess I meant that I wasn't + or - on the setting. I guess for the settings I used, the baseline timing in the motor would be 30 degrees for other motors. Sorry for the confusion.

[Matt Murphy]

UNFORTUNATELY..... companies are building more and more timing into their motors..... I think this is more of a problem than anything the ESC's are doing. Guys "think" they are at 0 degrees, and they are between 25 and 40 degrees of timing..... Novak, Orion, Trinity, and LRP all all guilty of this. If the motor is fast at "ZERO" degrees, it will fly at "10" degrees..... then they lose their magic smoke.

Companies "seem" to have really fast motors, and they sell more cause they burn up so frequently.... sad cycle for racers to be stuck in.

Matt

[K Stevens]

UNFORTUNATELY..... companies are building more and more timing into their motors..... I think this is more of a problem than anything the ESC's are doing. Guys "think" they are at 0 degrees, and they are between 25 and 40 degrees of timing..... Novak, Orion, Trinity, and LRP all all guilty of this. If the motor is fast at "ZERO" degrees, it will fly at "10" degrees..... then they lose their magic smoke.

Companies "seem" to have really fast motors, and they sell more cause they burn up so frequently.... sad cycle for racers to be stuck in.

Matt

Just to add to Matt's comments, I think the speed controls will actually help this problem once we understand how they work (and once we truly understand the base timing our motors have). The main killer of motors is high timing at 0 rpm. Back in the day when stock motors had 24 degrees of timing, they lasted longer. Then someone decided that 36 degrees of timing made the motor faster...it did but the motors didn't last as long. The same is still true today, and the reason is high amp draw at startup and at low RPM's. By utilizing the new speed controls correctly, we can have our motors with less timing at low RPM, while still having the performance advantage of the high timing at higher RPM's. I will be working on running less timing in my motors (that means going into the minus side on the ballistics) and adding timing to the speed control and possibly widening out the timing boost activation range which should give a smooth power band. By doing this I hope to see lower operating temps for my motors and the same on track performance. All along the way, I will have no secrets...I want everyone to be fast and have fun. I prefer to see 100+ racers like we had enjoying the racing and generally having a good time, not 30-40 racers all keeping secrets and only helping the people in their own little group. Here is my philosophy:

If I was racing for a paycheck, and winning or losing meant the difference between my family being fed or going hungry then I would keep secrets. It doesn't cost me money to lose, so I have no problem helping out the "competition". Does that mean I don't care if I win or lose? No, I prefer to win but I accept being beaten even if it is with my own equipment or setup. If I am fast, I will gladly share any information with anyone who asks me. On the same note, when I am slow I will do the same so other racers don't make the same mistakes. Helping racers out and seeing them have fun is one of the main reasons this racing will continue be successful for the rest of the year and in future years. Lets all do what we can to keep the fun level up and the frustration level down...

[K Stevens]

Also if anyones need A Ko or Tekin esc programed I alway have my laptop with both hookups with me at the track.

Likewise, if you are using a Mamba Max Pro and need speed control adjustments I will have my laptop at the track with the Castle Link software on it at each race I attend.

[Matt Murphy]

California racers kick @$$!!! Look at us, all workin together, making sure we can all have fun. I love it.

Matt

[Bullhead57]

Kevin,

Hope you can make the race at rescue becaue i am running the Momba Max Pro and the sofware in my laptop. Just don't know how to use it.

Pete

[K Stevens]

Kevin,

Hope you can make the race at rescue becaue i am running the Momba Max Pro and the sofware in my laptop. Just don't know how to use it.

Pete

Sorry, I will not be at Rescue - family plans at home will keep me from travelling this weekend. The software isn't too difficult to use, but if you aren't comfortable with your initial setup I recommend contacting Castle Creations by phone and seeing if you can talk to one of their techs that is familiar with the setup. Main thing you need to do initially is update the speed control to the most current firmware, then start playing with the setup parameters. You shouldn't need any real trick setups programmed into it at Rescue, and if you are running a 10.5 there you probably won't want to use the CHEAT mode anyway. If you can hold out until the Racers Haven race I will be glad to help you out then.

[Bullhead57]

Thanks Kevin,

I think that gearing could be my problem.

[Matt Murphy]

I suggest a FDR of 7.7 to 8 at rescue, with buggy tires, no motor timing advance, and NO ESC TIMING!!! Assuming you have a 10.5... 3 teeth higher for 13.5.

Matt

[oldsprintfan]

For what it's worth, last sunday at Rescue I ran with 6.58:1 final drive and 1.67" rollout using a Ballistic 10.5, stock timing in both the motor and ESC (GTB - no adjustments). I was using Caliber tires. I think I was pretty close. This was for both the Outlaw and the Rocket. Pete's Outlaw seemed a little peppier than mine. I'm not sure of his gearing but I think he was experimenting with his timing in both the motor and ESC to improve the power range band and it seemed to work.

Frank

[Matt Murphy]

Well, thats a little closer for ya guys!!! I was erring on the side of caution, after we lost 4 motors in our pit area last race...LOL. Thanks Frank!

Matt

[PBR Allstar]

Okay, back to the motor/esc issue. I put MMP's in both my sprint and my LM, I used the baseline that Kevin posted up (I will have a couple questions for you about the low and high end parameters on the timing when I see you) everything seems to work okay on the bench. My questions lay in respect to mechanical timing on the motors it's self. I know that the "N" setting on the ballistics that kevin is running is claimed by novak to be 30* all well and good if you're running a ballistic, I on the other hand have an SS novak and an Epic based putnam. The SS novak has the timing ring in the stock location (according to the diagram I saw posted from novak on RCTech) The putnam on the other hand is set at 10* on the sticker, which, is far off from the 30* of the N setting on the ballistic if in fact they correspond in that manner which I do not really think they do?

I'm gonna post up this same question over in the putnam forum, but if any of you guys have some insight I'd really appreciate it (Matt, I'm looking your direction)

thanks again, and see you in a couple days.

[Matt Murphy]

All sensored racing brushless 540 motors have timing advance built into the sensor boards. How much varies by brand and motor. Only Novak ballistics are tested for absolute zero degree timing from the factory. All the others vary by motor.