New Qualifying format for this year!

[Custom Works RC]

Begining this year we will be implementing a new qualifying procedure for the 3 rounds of qualifying heats. Instead of basing the qualifying on best overall time in all 3 rounds we will be implementing a qualifying points system similar to what is used in off-road and on-road racing with the biggest difference being that only your best single round will count for your qualifying posiion. Your second and possilby 3rd rounds will only be factored back in to break ties. The purpose of this format is to eliminate the potential for a "rocket round" in which the track is significantly faster for a given round which makes performance in that round have a greater meaning than the other two rounds. Our belief is that all 3 rounds of qualifying should be of equal weight and potential and this format truely gives each round the same potential in value for getting a good qualifying position.
Here is how this will work, the top qualifier after each round will be given 1 point, 2nd qualifer 2 points, 3rd 3 points and so on. This will be done for all 3 rounds of qualifying. A racers best single round or lowest point finish will be his or her "points". If you have a 2nd a 4th and a 6th your 2 point round will be what is counted. The 6 racers with the lowest points after 3 rounds will be the 6 racers who have made the A-main event, next 6 in the B etc. One of the realities of this is that the top two finishers in each of the 3 rounds will be gauranteed in the A-main with a 1 or 2 point total. Obviously some of those top two finishers may be the same person which will than put some 3's or even 4's in the main as well. It may sound confusing at first but it really isnt. With this format it is only important that you get one good round in and this way it will not matter which round it ends up being or how fast or slow the track may be at that time. Keep in mind that your next best round will be factored in to break a tie and obviously there will be ties with only 1 round counting as your primary score.

[Todd Putnam]

Rob,

Utilizing the point system for qualifying, will TQ be determined by single fastest run or lowest points in the event of a tie?

Example:

-Todd Putnam is fastest car (1 point) in Round 1with 60 laps, dnf's other 2 rounds. Best round = 1 point

-Rob Cutman is fastest car (1 point) for Round 2 with 59 laps, 2nd round is 2nd quick (2 points) and DNF's 3rd round. Best round = 1 point, Next best round = 2 points

My question is if there is a 2 or 3 way tie in the points system (3 different cars all TQ a round = all lowest point is a "1") what is used to determine the tie breaker for TQ? Fastest laps/time or your next best round for points?

Besides that scenario, I REALLY like the point format. Equal importance put on every qualifying round, not just the rocket round. :thumbsup: ;)

[JDCrow]

If your using RC Scoring Pro software for this event, use the Qual Points feature and it will calculate points after each round, then set the field after qualifiers are complete.

Todd, Racer with Low points is TQ for the event. It will also break ties if necessary.

[rj14]

Rob,

Utilizing the point system for qualifying, will TQ be determined by single fastest run or lowest points in the event of a tie?

Example:

-rj is fastest car (1 point) in Round 1with 60 laps, dnf's other 2 rounds. Best round = 1 point

-FRED is fastest car (1 point) for Round 2 with 59 laps, 2nd round is 2nd quick (2 points) and DNF's 3rd round. Best round = 1 point, Next best round = 2 points

My question is if there is a 2 or 3 way tie in the points system (3 different cars all TQ a round = all lowest point is a "1") what is used to determine the tie breaker for TQ? Fastest laps/time or your next best round for points?

Besides that scenario, I REALLY like the point format. Equal importance put on every qualifying round, not just the rocket round. :thumbsup: ;)

I am wondering as well...

I take it the lowest finishing position would be 8 points, so then there would be no short field heats corecct?

This is a cool format for sure!

[Todd Putnam]

If your using RC Scoring Pro software for this event, use the Qual Points feature and it will calculate points after each round, then set the field after qualifiers are complete.

Todd, Racer with Low points is TQ for the event. It will also break ties if necessary.

I knew that's how it was done in On/Off Road, just wasn't sure if Rob was going to use points or not to determine ties.

Part of me thinks TQ should go to the single fastest run, but yet another part feels that the lowest points should get TQ as well. Hopefully, the TQ's will be the cars with the single fastest runs AND the lowest points - :thumbsup:

[Todd Putnam]

I am wondering as well...

I take it the lowest finishing position would be 8 points, so then there would be no short field heats corecct?

This is a cool format for sure!

Points are awarded on what position you qualified OVERALL for the class, in that particular round - not just in your particular 8 car heat race. If there are 40 cars in your class, fastest car for THAT ROUND gets a 1, slowest car for that round gets a 40.

You know the "Overall Printout" that is posted after all the heats of an individual class are run? That determines your points for that round.

[Breckenridge]

I am wondering as well...

I take it the lowest finishing position would be 8 points, so then there would be no short field heats corecct?

This is a cool format for sure!


I assume you are racing against your entire class each round, not just the cars in your heat. So if there are 30 cars in a class, TQ for that round will be 1 point and lowest laps = 30 points.

How about ties are decided alphabetically? First name or last....doesn't matter.;)

[rj14]

Points are awarded on what position you qualified OVERALL for the class, in that particular round - not just in your particular 8 car heat race. If there are 40 cars in your class, fastest car for THAT ROUND gets a 1, slowest car for that round gets a 40.

You know the "Overall Printout" that is posted after all the heats of an individual class are run? That determines your points for that round.

ok...got it!

I assume you are racing against your entire class each round, not just the cars in your heat. So if there are 30 cars in a class, TQ for that round will be 1 point and lowest laps = 30 points.

How about ties are decided alphabetically? First name or last....doesn't matter.;)


well i am going to social security now to change my name..... I will be known as aaron aardvarkanian

[teopro27]

So if you dnf a round it really kills you?

[Todd Putnam]

RJ: I would get "1 Point" for this round, you would get "42 points"




Top Qualifiers for Limited Late Model 02/20/2009 9:56:44 PM

Qual# Name Laps Race Time Rnd Pos Behind FastLap
----- ---------------------------- ---- --------- --- --- ------ -------
1. Todd Putnam 58 4:02.365 1 1
2. Jim Beachley 58 4:03.423 1 1 1.058
3. Duane Wentzel 56 4:01.697 1 1
4. Randy Minich 56 4:02.187 1 1 0.490
5. Rick Davis 56 4:03.127 1 2 1.430
6. Jody Utt 55 4:00.329 1 2
7. Logan Shetter 55 4:00.919 1 1 0.590
8. Brian Bowie 55 4:01.572 1 1 1.243
9. Jason Hastings 54 3:59.972 1 1
10. Fred McCullough 54 4:00.489 1 2 0.517
11. Rodney Bauknecht 54 4:04.369 1 2 4.397
12. Todd Becker 53 4:01.727 1 1
13. Tyler Oswald 53 4:01.801 1 2 0.074
14. Cliff Augst 52 4:04.396 1 2
15. Mike Wollard 51 4:00.477 1 3
16. Ken Miller 51 4:02.180 1 3 1.703
17. Billy Tyree 50 4:03.099 1 3
18. Bill Moyer 50 4:03.485 1 3 0.386
19. Dave Greenly 49 4:00.132 1 4
20. Kody Banks 49 4:04.192 1 2 4.060
21. Ed Crowl 48 3:53.676 1 5
22. Matt Condon 48 4:02.683 1 3 9.007
23. Brian Strausser 48 4:03.589 1 4 9.913
24. Rick Fox 48 4:05.126 1 2 11.450
25. Les Hartzell 47 3:53.687 1 3
26. Kayo Clark 47 4:01.839 1 4 8.152
27. Dave Loughead 47 4:02.412 1 5 8.725
28. Terry Mealy 46 4:00.489 1 3
29. Scott Staub 46 4:00.940 1 3 0.451
30. Chuck Eccles 45 4:04.898 1 6
31. Shane Schell 43 4:00.048 1 4
32. Loren Taylor 43 4:00.820 1 4 0.772
33. Matt Oswald 40 3:50.990 1 5
34. Andy Shell 26 2:01.683 1 4
35. Steve Barton 23 2:32.900 1 4
36. Jim Fries 21 1:34.408 1 5
37. Yvonne Murray 12 1:09.034 1 5
38. Nathan Fletcher 10 46.822 1 4
39. Dave Johns 1 5.978 1 5
40. Dylan Zartman 0 0.000 1 6
41. Kevin Ridley 0 0.000 1 6 0.000
42. Robert Dittmer 0 0.000 1 5 0.000
43. CJ Funk 0 0.000 1 5 0.000

[Custom Works RC]

Rob,

Utilizing the point system for qualifying, will TQ be determined by single fastest run or lowest points in the event of a tie?

Example:

-Todd Putnam is fastest car (1 point) in Round 1with 60 laps, dnf's other 2 rounds. Best round = 1 point

-Rob Cutman is fastest car (1 point) for Round 2 with 59 laps, 2nd round is 2nd quick (2 points) and DNF's 3rd round. Best round = 1 point, Next best round = 2 points

My question is if there is a 2 or 3 way tie in the points system (3 different cars all TQ a round = all lowest point is a "1") what is used to determine the tie breaker for TQ? Fastest laps/time or your next best round for points?

Besides that scenario, I REALLY like the point format. Equal importance put on every qualifying round, not just the rocket round. :thumbsup: ;)

Tie breakers will be determined by adding back in your 2nd round, if still tied, than 3rd round, If still tied than fastest time.

The TQ Award will be given to the driver with the lowest points using the scenario above to deal with ties. An additional "Fastest Qualifier" award will be given this year to the driver with the fastest time turned in qualifying.

Dashes still determine Main lineup and a drawing will still be used to determine dash starting positions.



I take it the lowest finishing position would be 8 points, so then there would be no short field heats corecct?


The points are based off where you finish in the round, not your heat. If there are 40 cars in a class last in the round will get 40 points.

[Todd Putnam]

So if you dnf a round it really kills you?

No, single best round "points" seat the mains. 2nd best round "points" determine tie breakers.

[rj14]

RJ: I would get "1 Point" for this round, you would get "42 points"




Top Qualifiers for Limited Late Model 02/20/2009 9:56:44 PM

Qual# Name Laps Race Time Rnd Pos Behind FastLap
----- ---------------------------- ---- --------- --- --- ------ -------
1. Todd Putnam 58 4:02.365 1 1
2. Jim Beachley 58 4:03.423 1 1 1.058
3. Duane Wentzel 56 4:01.697 1 1
4. Randy Minich 56 4:02.187 1 1 0.490
5. Rick Davis 56 4:03.127 1 2 1.430
6. Jody Utt 55 4:00.329 1 2
7. Logan Shetter 55 4:00.919 1 1 0.590
8. Brian Bowie 55 4:01.572 1 1 1.243
9. Jason Hastings 54 3:59.972 1 1
10. Fred McCullough 54 4:00.489 1 2 0.517
11. Rodney Bauknecht 54 4:04.369 1 2 4.397
12. Todd Becker 53 4:01.727 1 1
13. Tyler Oswald 53 4:01.801 1 2 0.074
14. Cliff Augst 52 4:04.396 1 2
15. Mike Wollard 51 4:00.477 1 3
16. Ken Miller 51 4:02.180 1 3 1.703
17. Billy Tyree 50 4:03.099 1 3
18. Bill Moyer 50 4:03.485 1 3 0.386
19. Dave Greenly 49 4:00.132 1 4
20. Kody Banks 49 4:04.192 1 2 4.060
21. Ed Crowl 48 3:53.676 1 5
22. Matt Condon 48 4:02.683 1 3 9.007
23. Brian Strausser 48 4:03.589 1 4 9.913
24. Rick Fox 48 4:05.126 1 2 11.450
25. Les Hartzell 47 3:53.687 1 3
26. Kayo Clark 47 4:01.839 1 4 8.152
27. Dave Loughead 47 4:02.412 1 5 8.725
28. Terry Mealy 46 4:00.489 1 3
29. Scott Staub 46 4:00.940 1 3 0.451
30. Chuck Eccles 45 4:04.898 1 6
31. Shane Schell 43 4:00.048 1 4
32. Loren Taylor 43 4:00.820 1 4 0.772
33. Matt Oswald 40 3:50.990 1 5
34. Andy Shell 26 2:01.683 1 4
35. Steve Barton 23 2:32.900 1 4
36. Jim Fries 21 1:34.408 1 5
37. Yvonne Murray 12 1:09.034 1 5
38. Nathan Fletcher 10 46.822 1 4
39. Dave Johns 1 5.978 1 5
40. Dylan Zartman 0 0.000 1 6
41. Kevin Ridley 0 0.000 1 6 0.000
42. Robert Dittmer 0 0.000 1 5 0.000
43. CJ Funk 0 0.000 1 5 0.000

Touche'...that really hurts. I kinda deserved it though. HAHAHA!!

[teopro27]

So if you win 2 rounds of a 40 car field and dnf in the third round your points will be 42,right. if another guy finished second in all three rounds his point total would be 6, right?

[Todd Putnam]

Touche'...that really hurts. I kinda deserved it though. HAHAHA!!


...and if you look closely, you still can't beat Ridley, even when neither one of you even starts the race. LOL

[rj14]

...and if you look closely, you still can't beat Ridley, even when neither one of you even starts the race. LOL

I was going to say that I am almost as good as Ridley.....but we know better! LOL!!

[teopro27]

No, single best round "points" seat the mains. 2nd best round "points" determine tie breakers.


got it now, that sounds like a cool idea:thumbsup:

[Todd Putnam]

So if you win 2 rounds of a 40 car field and dnf in the third round your points will be 42,right. if another guy finished second in all three rounds his point total would be 6, right?

Yes, but only your best round counts. You would have 1 point, the other guy would have 2 points.
If you won 2 rounds, and finished 40th in third round, your points = 1-1-40
Other guy runs 2nd all 3 rounds - 2-2-2
Guy that Wins round that you DNF gets a 1. You also have a 1. Tie breaker is 2nd best point. You have another 1, you TQ.

[rj14]

So if you win 2 rounds of a 40 car field and dnf in the third round your points will be 42,right. if another guy finished second in all three rounds his point total would be 6, right?

no it would be 1 point.

1 point would be a tiebreaker score

if still tied your 40 points will be used.

if still tied your laps and time for best run will be final tie breaker

if still tied....get Rob a beer cause he will need it!

is this correct???

[Todd Putnam]

Rob ALWAYS needs alchohol at the USOW, regardless of format!!!


:beer::beer::beer::beer:

[Custom Works RC]

So if you dnf a round it really kills you?

Not at all, You still have 2 chances to get a good run in. In fact you can have 2 bad runs and as long as you get 1 good run thats all you need. The second round may be a factor if you end up tied but at that point the most it could hurt you would be a drop of 2 spots. If Todd has a 2 and RJ has a 2 the tie breaker will only drop you behind the two of them at worst, the most you can have is a 3 way tie. In fact you could have 2 bad rounds and a 3 and Todd Putnam could have 2 3's and a 1, at that point you are the only driver with a 3 and the tie breaker is not needed.

[solly]

i hear voices

[rj14]

Not at all, You still have 2 chances to get a good run in. In fact you can have 2 bad runs and as long as you get 1 good run thats all you need. The second round may be a factor if you end up tied but at that point the most it could hurt you would be a drop of 2 spots. If Todd has a 2 and RJ has a 2 the tie breaker will only drop you behind the two of them at worst, the most you can have is a 3 way tie. In fact you could have 2 bad rounds and a 3 and Todd Putnam could have 2 3's and a 1, at that point you are the only driver with a 3 and the tie breaker is not needed.


Yeah but Todd Putnam has a better chance of waking up w/ a 2 in the morning than I do. Just look at his car #'s. They are that way for a reason.:D

ok, i am done now w/ the useless dribble....

back to the serious stuff

[Custom Works RC]

So if you win 2 rounds of a 40 car field and dnf in the third round your points will be 42,right. if another guy finished second in all three rounds his point total would be 6, right?

Be careful in calculating a point total because it is irrelevent in the scenario you described here. The fact that you have a 1 and his best is a 2 means you beat him regardless of anything else. The only thing that matters to you at this point is the other guy that had a 1 and since you had 2 ones you beat him.

Qualifying points have been around in Off-Road for a long time and generally use a best 2 out of 3 or 4 format and combine totals. What makes this work better for oval is that we only count 1 round and the other 2 are throwouts unless needed for a tie. It rewards going fast as it always has and not necessarily consistency as the off-road format usually does. The key is it doesnt matter if the round you won is 3 laps slower than any other round, you still have a 1.

[curtisp]

RJ: I would get "1 Point" for this round, you would get "42 points"




Top Qualifiers for Limited Late Model 02/20/2009 9:56:44 PM

Qual# Name Laps Race Time Rnd Pos Behind FastLap
----- ---------------------------- ---- --------- --- --- ------ -------
1. Todd Putnam 58 4:02.365 1 1
2. Jim Beachley 58 4:03.423 1 1 1.058
3. Duane Wentzel 56 4:01.697 1 1
4. Randy Minich 56 4:02.187 1 1 0.490
5. Rick Davis 56 4:03.127 1 2 1.430
6. Jody Utt 55 4:00.329 1 2
7. Logan Shetter 55 4:00.919 1 1 0.590
8. Brian Bowie 55 4:01.572 1 1 1.243
9. Jason Hastings 54 3:59.972 1 1
10. Fred McCullough 54 4:00.489 1 2 0.517
11. Rodney Bauknecht 54 4:04.369 1 2 4.397
12. Todd Becker 53 4:01.727 1 1
13. Tyler Oswald 53 4:01.801 1 2 0.074
14. Cliff Augst 52 4:04.396 1 2
15. Mike Wollard 51 4:00.477 1 3
16. Ken Miller 51 4:02.180 1 3 1.703
17. Billy Tyree 50 4:03.099 1 3
18. Bill Moyer 50 4:03.485 1 3 0.386
19. Dave Greenly 49 4:00.132 1 4
20. Kody Banks 49 4:04.192 1 2 4.060
21. Ed Crowl 48 3:53.676 1 5
22. Matt Condon 48 4:02.683 1 3 9.007
23. Brian Strausser 48 4:03.589 1 4 9.913
24. Rick Fox 48 4:05.126 1 2 11.450
25. Les Hartzell 47 3:53.687 1 3
26. Kayo Clark 47 4:01.839 1 4 8.152
27. Dave Loughead 47 4:02.412 1 5 8.725
28. Terry Mealy 46 4:00.489 1 3
29. Scott Staub 46 4:00.940 1 3 0.451
30. Chuck Eccles 45 4:04.898 1 6
31. Shane Schell 43 4:00.048 1 4
32. Loren Taylor 43 4:00.820 1 4 0.772
33. Matt Oswald 40 3:50.990 1 5
34. Andy Shell 26 2:01.683 1 4
35. Steve Barton 23 2:32.900 1 4
36. Jim Fries 21 1:34.408 1 5
37. Yvonne Murray 12 1:09.034 1 5
38. Nathan Fletcher 10 46.822 1 4
39. Dave Johns 1 5.978 1 5
40. Dylan Zartman 0 0.000 1 6
41. Kevin Ridley 0 0.000 1 6 0.000
42. Robert Dittmer 0 0.000 1 5 0.000
43. CJ Funk 0 0.000 1 5 0.000


This brings up a good question...in the scenario posted by Todd...4 cars didn't even get one lap completed so those 4 cars tied for that round. Would they each get 40 points for that round?


Rob, sounds like an interesting new format. Should be fun!!!

[rj14]

This brings up a good question...in the scenario posted by Todd...4 cars didn't even get one lap completed so those 4 cars tied for that round. Would they each get 40 points for that round?


Rob, sounds like an interesting new format. Should be fun!!!


oh yeah, keep pointing that one out!!! LOL!

[Custom Works RC]

This brings up a good question...in the scenario posted by Todd...4 cars didn't even get one lap completed so those 4 cars tied for that round. Would they each get 40 points for that round?


Rob, sounds like an interesting new format. Should be fun!!!

I am pretty sure they would each get 40 points but I will have to check how it handles that scenario. This format is already included in the RC Scoring Pro software it is just rarely used for oval racing.

[signman501]

HUH :confused:. You guys figure it out, I'm just coming for the :beer:.

[kipp]

so what your saying is.......if all three of my rounds suck, im pretty much screwed?

[rj14]

so what your saying is.......if all three of my rounds suck, im pretty much screwed?

you were screwed before ever leaving the hotel....LOL!

[Custom Works RC]

so what your saying is.......if all three of my rounds suck, im pretty much screwed?

No more screwed than you would have been under the old system, if you sucked before, you will still suck!

[DaBearsNo13]

I like this format! Great job Rob! :thumbsup:

Russ

[TQ Cells]

Very good :thumbsup:

How will the first round get set? Random? Practice heat?

Re-shuffle after every round?

Steve.

[siggy99x]

You cant really reshuffle i dont think after every round but I could be wrong on this

[ctsieber]

HUH :confused:. You guys figure it out, I'm just coming for the :beer:.

Now thats the best thing I've read yet!!!!

[solly]

Very good :thumbsup:

How will the first round get set? Random? Practice heat?

Re-shuffle after every round?

Steve.

length

[rdcobra]

length


of what? the travel time to get to B&J? ;)

[Team GFRP]

length


You're screwed, you can't even see it...;)

[Sonny B]

Works for me. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[dirty one]

this is good rob. change is always good. like it i want somemore of it. change it all.



diryt one

[JASONHastings]

I like the new qualifying format I give it a thumbs up .

[rj14]

length


WTP!?!?

do you want to do the measuring???

I think you need to call this #518-452-0422, I was told the minute rate was cheap....operator standing by

[glgraphix]

No more screwed than you would have been under the old system, if you sucked before, you will still suck!
Thats funny :rolleyes:

[boatanchor48]

Very good :thumbsup:

How will the first round get set? Random? Practice heat?

Re-shuffle after every round?

Steve.


id like to see first round be set from last years results

[Zepp70]

id like to see first round be set from last years results


umm yeah, that would be fun......prob not since that would make no sense to use last years results for this years race.:beer:

[signman501]

I'm sure they will set the heats in random like they did last year. It was nice to practice with your heats to get an idea of how your runs would be. Much better than open practice.

[rj14]

id like to see first round be set from last years results





http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/b/6/8/b68b977bfe2bc5e0f071df3507f2f6cf.png


if you tell me what that is I will let you start in any heat you waaant

[rj14]

and no helping him guys.......i know there are a few of you that know what it is

[Team GFRP]

Do you realize that a person could run 3rd in each round and not make the A-main. I know it's highly unlikely that it would happen but it is possible.

[Matt Murphy]

I 100% agree with switching to a qualifying points system... but I Do not like that only one out of three rounds are used. I have never seen or heard of anyone using one out of three. Usually qual-points are used to reward consistency and eliminate the rocket round. Standard qual-points system uses best 2of3 or 2of4 points to set the field. This requires a consistently fast car/driver to make the main. Someone could go out and run a top 2 run and not even start his next 2 races and make the show!? Meanwhile, another guy can run 3rd in all three rounds and not be in the show? This rewards the out of control fast guy that doesnt finsh his runs, yet somehow puts together one good run. Instead of rewarding the consistently fast guy who ran 3rd in all 3 rounds with an a-main spot, he must run the B-Main.

Here is my problem with the format:

Driver A points totals from three rounds: 18-2-13...his best two scores equal 15

Driver B points totals from three rounds: 3-3-3.....his best two scores equal 6

Driver C points totals from three rounds: 6-4-13...his best two scores equal 10

In this format it is almost like we are favoring the guy who has one good run over the guy who is consistently fast.

How do we put driver A in the a-main when he had one A-main run and two c-main runs?
How do we put driver B in the b-main after 3 a-main runs?
How do we put driver C in the c or d-main after 2 a-main runs and a c-main run?

This format promotes pushing everything to the limit in search of one good run, it does not force a driver to be consistently good to make the main.

Now I know for a fact I would have made the Nitro Sprint A-Main last year, had this system been in place, as I had two 2nd place points finishes in rounds 1 and 2. However in round 3 I got bumped out to the B, but I believe the people who beat me out deserved the A-Main, I was where I belonged in the B. They ran faster when it counted.

I attend most major offroad races, and this system works great if utilized properly.

I am not tryiung to cause problems, but I do not see how using one out of three can make the race better? Can anyone explain why two out of three is a bad thing, and not better for our sport?

I am very open to discussion on this...so guys...let the flaming begin!:mad:

Matt Murphy

[rj14]

I am very open to discussion on this...so guys...let the flaming begin!:mad:

Matt Murphy



I don't think you will see much flaming Matt. This is a valid point.

I was just ignoring Dustin.....well because it's Dustin.

[ksj44]

What if while you are doing a #1 you realize you need to do a #2 too....then what? :confused:

.......and wouldn't RJ then have an advantage because he would already bet "sitting" in the #2 position?


But Seriously....I have to say I like the new system, yes I am sure there are some flaws to it, but overall I think it is alot more fair than the old one :thumbsup:.... keep up the good work

Keith

[TQ Cells]

I 100% agree with switching to a qualifying points system... but I Do not like that only one out of three rounds are used. I have never seen or heard of anyone using one out of three. Usually qual-points are used to reward consistency and eliminate the rocket round. Standard qual-points system uses best 2of3 or 2of4 points to set the field. This requires a consistently fast car/driver to make the main. Someone could go out and run a top 2 run and not even start his next 2 races and make the show!? Meanwhile, another guy can run 3rd in all three rounds and not be in the show? This rewards the out of control fast guy that doesnt finsh his runs, yet somehow puts together one good run. Instead of rewarding the consistently fast guy who ran 3rd in all 3 rounds with an a-main spot, he must run the B-Main.

Here is my problem with the format:

Driver A points totals from three rounds: 18-2-13...his best two scores equal 15

Driver B points totals from three rounds: 3-3-3.....his best two scores equal 6

Driver C points totals from three rounds: 6-4-13...his best two scores equal 10

In this format it is almost like we are favoring the guy who has one good run over the guy who is consistently fast.

How do we put driver A in the a-main when he had one A-main run and two c-main runs?
How do we put driver B in the b-main after 3 a-main runs?
How do we put driver C in the c or d-main after 2 a-main runs and a c-main run?

This format promotes pushing everything to the limit in search of one good run, it does not force a driver to be consistently good to make the main.

Now I know for a fact I would have made the Nitro Sprint A-Main last year, had this system been in place, as I had two 2nd place points finishes in rounds 1 and 2. However in round 3 I got bumped out to the B, but I believe the people who beat me out deserved the A-Main, I was where I belonged in the B. They ran faster when it counted.

I attend most major offroad races, and this system works great if utilized properly.

I am not tryiung to cause problems, but I do not see how using one out of three can make the race better? Can anyone explain why two out of three is a bad thing, and not better for our sport?

I am very open to discussion on this...so guys...let the flaming begin!:mad:

Matt Murphy

You have a valid point ... but,

I still like the 1 round because if you get yourself locked in by getting 2nd in any of the rounds nobody can take that away from you ... you were FAST in that round and even consistency from any other driver won't bump you out.

I like the fact that 2 drivers will be locked in after Thursday ... kind of cool!

We're moving away from the 1 rocket round that would likely set the a-main on the last day ... to the new format that will put the emphasis on performing from the get go (Thursday).

The previous format was also locking you in using your best single run (lap/time wise) .. the new format will still use your best run but giving every driver an equal chance for each and every round (not just the rocket one).

Steve.

[Teamt2c]

i really like everything i see concerning this race!

[boatanchor48]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/b/6/8/b68b977bfe2bc5e0f071df3507f2f6cf.png


if you tell me what that is I will let you start in any heat you waaant


its a headache :ha:

[Custom Works RC]

Do you realize that a person could run 3rd in each round and not make the A-main. I know it's highly unlikely that it would happen but it is possible.

It was possible under the old system as well.

[Custom Works RC]

I 100% agree with switching to a qualifying points system... but I Do not like that only one out of three rounds are used. I have never seen or heard of anyone using one out of three. Usually qual-points are used to reward consistency and eliminate the rocket round. Standard qual-points system uses best 2of3 or 2of4 points to set the field. This requires a consistently fast car/driver to make the main. Someone could go out and run a top 2 run and not even start his next 2 races and make the show!? Meanwhile, another guy can run 3rd in all three rounds and not be in the show? This rewards the out of control fast guy that doesnt finsh his runs, yet somehow puts together one good run. Instead of rewarding the consistently fast guy who ran 3rd in all 3 rounds with an a-main spot, he must run the B-Main..

The qualifying heats are 4 minutes, not 8. We are only trying to eliminate the rocket round not reward consistency. The old format didn't reward consistency either, it rewarded who went the fastest. By only counting one round you still reward whoever goes the fastest but now all 3 rounds have the same weight with regard to it meaning something.

Here is my problem with the format:

Driver A points totals from three rounds: 18-2-13...his best two scores equal 15

Driver B points totals from three rounds: 3-3-3.....his best two scores equal 6

Driver C points totals from three rounds: 6-4-13...his best two scores equal 10

In this format it is almost like we are favoring the guy who has one good run over the guy who is consistently fast.

How do we put driver A in the a-main when he had one A-main run and two c-main runs?
How do we put driver B in the b-main after 3 a-main runs?
How do we put driver C in the c or d-main after 2 a-main runs and a c-main run?


You can slice this a bunch of different ways.
If Driver D has a: 1-1-1 ...
and Driver E has a: 2-5-2...
than driver A, B, D, E, probably C and maybe even an F will all be in the main. You are forgetting that all of the 1's and 2's could be used up by just 2 guys which could put drivers with 3's, 4's and maybe even 5's in the main as well.

You say how do we put driver C in the C or D main with 2 Amain runs of a 6-4-13. With a 4 the worst he could possibly be is 12th after qualifying which would put him in the B main.

This format promotes pushing everything to the limit in search of one good run, it does not force a driver to be consistently good to make the main.

Sounds great, that was the intention.


Now I know for a fact I would have made the Nitro Sprint A-Main last year, had this system been in place, as I had two 2nd place points finishes in rounds 1 and 2. However in round 3 I got bumped out to the B, but I believe the people who beat me out deserved the A-Main, I was where I belonged in the B. They ran faster when it counted.

You say they ran faster when it counted, since when is any one round supposed to count more than another. We have 3 rounds of qualifying not 2 rounds of practice and 1 round of qualifying. You say you "belonged in the B" but the system you are promoting would have put you in the A as well. The only format that leaves you out of the A is the old one from last year. Do you honestyl feel the guy who was 6th in the rocket round should have been ahead of any one or even both of your second place finishes? What if he had 2 DNF's in the previous 2 rounds, would you still feel the same way.



I attend most major offroad races, and this system works great if utilized properly.

I am not tryiung to cause problems, but I do not see how using one out of three can make the race better? Can anyone explain why two out of three is a bad thing, and not better for our sport?

I am very open to discussion on this...so guys...let the flaming begin!:mad:

Matt Murphy

This qualifying format is something I have been considering for well over a year and a half. it is not something I just dreamed up overnight. In my opinion it is the best combination of the old format and the qual points format used in on-road and off-road. As I said the desire is to eliminate the negatives of a rocket round. To start rewarding consistency when it was never considered before is not something that I think is desireable for QUALIFYING. I can't off hand think of any kind of Qualifying format in any other form of racing that is based on consistency, not saying it doesn't exist, just saying I cant think of any.

I think that time and a few trys at this will prove it to be a good and fair way of qualifying for any race program that wants to eliminate a Rocket Round from diminishing the results of the other rounds that should be just as important. I hope none of this sounds harsh towards your opinion as it is not intended to be. Just trying to point out the reasons and potential benefits to the system we have developed to use this year.

Respectfully,
Rob Cutman
Custom Works

[ericsalvas]

well explained Rob...

i really think a guy from the sunshine state should take a real good look at this format...this would for sure makes that great carpet race in late january more attractive.

Eric S

[Teamt2c]

The qualifying heats are 4 minutes, not 8. We are only trying to eliminate the rocket round not reward consistency. The old format didn't reward consistency either, it rewarded who went the fastest. By only counting one round you still reward whoever goes the fastest but now all 3 rounds have the same weight with regard to it meaning something.


You can slice this a bunch of different ways.
If Driver D has a: 1-1-1 ...
and Driver E has a: 2-5-2...
than driver A, B, D, E, probably C and maybe even an F will all be in the main. You are forgetting that all of the 1's and 2's could be used up by just 2 guys which could put drivers with 3's, 4's and maybe even 5's in the main as well.

You say how do we put driver C in the C or D main with 2 Amain runs of a 6-4-13. With a 4 the worst he could possibly be is 12th after qualifying which would put him in the B main.


Sounds great, that was the intention.



You say they ran faster when it counted, since when is any one round supposed to count more than another. We have 3 rounds of qualifying not 2 rounds of practice and 1 round of qualifying. You say you "belonged in the B" but the system you are promoting would have put you in the A as well. The only format that leaves you out of the A is the old one from last year. Do you honestyl feel the guy who was 6th in the rocket round should have been ahead of any one or even both of your second place finishes? What if he had 2 DNF's in the previous 2 rounds, would you still feel the same way.




This qualifying format is something I have been considering for well over a year and a half. it is not something I just dreamed up overnight. In my opinion it is the best combination of the old format and the qual points format used in on-road and off-road. As I said the desire is to eliminate the negatives of a rocket round. To start rewarding consistency when it was never considered before is not something that I think is desireable for QUALIFYING. I can't off hand think of any kind of Qualifying format in any other form of racing that is based on consistency, not saying it doesn't exist, just saying I cant think of any.

I think that time and a few trys at this will prove it to be a good and fair way of qualifying for any race program that wants to eliminate a Rocket Round from diminishing the results of the other rounds that should be just as important. I hope none of this sounds harsh towards your opinion as it is not intended to be. Just trying to point out the reasons and potential benefits to the system we have developed to use this year.

Respectfully,
Rob Cutman
Custom Works


sounds like motocross to me and i understand how this works! Aplus!

[oldsprintfan]

First let me say that I'm fairly newly back into RC racing and totally new to oval. I have yet to attend one of these "Big Races". I read from Post 1 to Post 59 straight through and can see the logic of all the serious positions, especially represented by Rob and Matt. For my own education, how are the participants in each qualifier determined? I can see a situation where a normally C Main level racer could end up in a qualifier with me and four racers like me and end up being a lock in the A Main. With three qualifying rounds do you end up racing the same five racers in each round or is there a new draw for each qualifier? Just trying top understand how it works.

As to the overall argument if we are modeling ourselves after the dirt oval Sprint, EDM and LM races around the country, large or small, you get one chance to qualify, X chances to transfer to the A main from your heat and X chances to transfer up from lower mains ultimately to the A. It seems that Rob's system is pretty close to that to me.

Frank

[TQ Cells]

Very good :thumbsup:

How will the first round get set? Random? Practice heat?

Re-shuffle after every round?

Steve.

Rob, see above (maybe you've missed my post from the previous page).

Thanks.

Steve.

[Custom Works RC]

Rob, see above (maybe you've missed my post from the previous page).

Thanks.

Steve.

To answer Franks question regarding how it has always been done in the past. First round of heats was setup by random sort via the scoring system. After two rounds with the same drivers in each heat the 3rd round was then setup by the results to that point. Fastest qualifiers to that point in heat 1 next group in heat 2 etc.

To answer Steves question, It will probably be the same as last year although by running one round each day there is now time to resort between round 1 and 2 if we chose to. The truth is we have not exactly decided how to handle that this year but as soon as we do I will post it on this thread.

Thanks,
Rob

[oldsprintfan]

Thanks Rob. Makes my hypothetical pretty unlikely.

Frank

[DirtOvalDude]

Sounds like a cool idea except as mentioned above theres always a "fast heat". So if 6 guys in heat #1 run 60 laps and then the 6 guys in heat #2 are slower guys and they all run 58 laps then the guy who won heat #2 with 58 laps will be in the amain and the guys who ran 4th 5th and 6th in heat #1 with 60 laps will most likely be in the B or C. A reshuffle each round would certainly help but the potentioal is there to get stuck with the Putnam's, Hotalings and Dave Peeks each round.....not that these guys scare ME much....:D Definately like the concept though especially if qualifying isnt all in the same day, it makes sense.

[TQ Cells]

Sounds like a cool idea except as mentioned above theres always a "fast heat". So if 6 guys in heat #1 run 60 laps and then the 6 guys in heat #2 are slower guys and they all run 58 laps then the guy who won heat #2 with 58 laps will be in the amain and the guys who ran 4th 5th and 6th in heat #1 with 60 laps will most likely be in the B or C. A reshuffle each round would certainly help but the potentioal is there to get stuck with the Putnam's, Hotalings and Dave Peeks each round.....not that these guys scare ME much....:D Definately like the concept though especially if qualifying isnt all in the same day, it makes sense.

Your personal score for each round is based on your position in the whole class not your particular race. If you scored the 6th best run in the round you get 6 points. It doesn't matter where you finished in your race. You might've won your race and still be 20th overall in your round (20 points).

Steve.

[rj14]

What if while you are doing a #1 you realize you need to do a #2 too....then what? :confused:

.......and wouldn't RJ then have an advantage because he would already bet "sitting" in the #2 position?


But Seriously....I have to say I like the new system, yes I am sure there are some flaws to it, but overall I think it is alot more fair than the old one :thumbsup:.... keep up the good work

Keith

I'm always in the #2 position.

its a headache :ha:

no, it's more like a hemeroid!!!!

ok, i'll open it up for anyone to guess now....

[Matt Murphy]

Rob,
Thank you for expressing the reasons for the change, and what the intent of the format change is. Definitely the discussion I was looking for. (Somehow I have better luck writing to you on here than calling ya...LOL!):confused:

I now understand the new rules package, and agree it is a great step forward for our sport!:thumbsup:

Rob, and the entire D.O.D.C. committee have helped grow the hobby, and given us a baseline rulebook to make it possible to compete anywhere in the country with the same car.:trophy_bronze:

Kudos to everyone involved in making this race better than all years previous...Cant wait to see Chris and Wacky Jackie again, Its been years.

This is two firsts for me...
1-First time I have ever used smilies in my posts...
2-First time I have ever seen a discussion on any forum without a throwdown and tempers flaring!

Good job Rob, keep the good stuff coming!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Matt

[DirtOvalDude]

Your personal score for each round is based on your position in the whole class not your particular race. If you scored the 6th best run in the round you get 6 points. It doesn't matter where you finished in your race. You might've won your race and still be 20th overall in your round (20 points).

Steve.


Thanks Steve, i missed that part, this really makes a lot of sense now, I wouldnt mind seeing this in our regular Monday night shows too as most of the time fast times are set second round, if you break second round youre usually out!