A Little help?

[bumps and jumps rc]

As many of you know the fall sprint nats are coming up
I would like to do something a little different
I always liked when we used to do single car qualifying
I would like to do that
I would also like to set heats and race mains similar to real cars
does anyone have any idea how to do that in RC?
and is this a good idea
It is a one day race show
here is last years classes and entries

wingless - 11
13.5 - 22
limited - 19
open - 16
6.5 mod - 9

I am sure you all have better ideas than I can come up with.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Chris

[siggy99x]

top 6 times right to the A the rest to lower mains. The top 6 run a 2 minute dash to set the starting order in the A and the two bump up cars fall in at positions 7 and 8.

Or top 3 time trialers got right to the A main top 3 from heats to the A then do a dash for those six cars and 2 bump ups from lower mains

[Breckenridge]

The only way to tell if it is a good idea or not is to try it. I have always wanted to try a points system similar to the Knoxville nationals. I'm not sure exactly how they do it, but here's an idea.

Each car first runs a two lap time trial. Fastest lap counts. Points are awarded from fastest to slowest. Let's assume 40 cars is the max per class. Fast time = 40 points, 2nd fast = 39 points etc...

Heats are set up with fast car going into heat 1, 2nd fastest car going into heat 2 etc... to ensure no "stacked" heats.

Two complete rounds of heats are run, each carrying similar weighting to the time trials. 40 points to win the heat, 35 for 2nd, 30 for 3rd etc... How many laps you run does not matter, only where you finish.

So after 1 round of time trials, and 2 rounds of heats, points are added up and used to seed the mains.

Top 6 in each class run a cash dash before the mains (you've got some extra cash you want to give out right?) lol The winner of the dash draws for the main inversion 0,2,4, or 6.

The biggest obstacle to doing this is probably keeping track of everything. It might not be too bad with only 5 or 6 classes.

[irocz69]

Chris, Both Laudan & Brian's ideas are good, but unless you have someone extra to keep track of points I would go w/Laudans idea. It will keep things simpler, but I do like Brian's concept.

As far as the time trials go, it shouldn't be a problem for a one day show. They did it @ the WDRA Nats this summer & if it wouldn't of rained they would of got the show in w/no problem.

Whatever is decided, im sure it will be a good time had by all. Looking forward to the first BIG race of the winter season.

GO FAST TURN LEFT ! Keith S.

[WADE ROWLEY]

Daytona style qualifying...kinda :thumbsup:

3 lap time trials, take best lap, top 2 from each class on the front row for the A mains, everyone else races for the remaining positions in the heats. heat 1 seeded by time trials, heat 2 inverted, if heat 3 then resort.

just a thought.

[kerstetter]

i would like to run for 50 laps in the mains instead of 4 min

[Dan D]

i would like to run for 50 laps in the mains instead of 4 min

at Bumps??????

[siggy99x]

i would like to run for 50 laps in the mains instead of 4 min

Talk about realistic we would have to stop for a fuel stop with 10 to go LOL!!!!

[DaBearsNo13]

Did we not go 55 laps at the Freeze in 4 mins? I like Rob's idea. I like the idea of time trials also, lock in the top two & go from there. Brian's idea would be great, if it can be done....either way I will be there slamming the walls!!!

Later,
Russ

[Rcer19]

Breckenridge, i like your idea

[kerstetter]

no 50 laps is no problem at bumps could prob run 65-70 on fuel with my tg Talk about realistic we would have to stop for a fuel stop with 10 to go LOL!!!!

[kerstetter]

I love brian idea as well I just want to run it just like that only for laps instead of the time deal and I think 50 is good for bumps maybe make it only 30 or 40 for the heats something like that

[Breckenridge]

Chris -
If you decide to use a points system like I described above, I can help tally up the points at the track. I will only be running one class and should have some extra time. If you have Excel or something similar it would be extremely easy to do.

I am not familiar at all with the scoring software though. As long as you can tell it to seed the heats by the time trials it will be fine. This has to be possible since it was done at the Open Wheel race for about the first 8 years. I'm sure yourself or Brock or Nick would know more about that.

Rob - I like the idea of 50 lap mains. I think there might be some problems with the scoring system if you run for laps in the heats because of the IFMAR qualifying and each car being on its own clock. You could do it the old fashioned way (like the mains) and have everybody on one clock....but it always seems like getting everyone to line up in a nice straight line is the hardest thing to do in the world. It's easier to let everyone randomly spread out at the start.

[terry14]

here is my take.

two lap qualifying runs.
top two are the front row for the a main.
everyone draws heat lineups from a hat.
heat finishes decide your main.
dash for cash for top two in each heat and top two qualifiers.
top two in each heat race qualify for the a main (depending on entries)
each main bumps up top two.

i love the idea of racing laps instead of time. lets do it for the heats also.

[siggy99x]

Lots of great ideas it will be a great time no matter which way you go!! Can you run an electric sprint in the wingless class?

[FossilRC]

The Nats. was a great time last year, and it's sure to be this year. The ideas put forth by all are great. Let's all have a good time. :checkeredflag:

[Porksalot4l]

hi guys i didnt know where to find the date for this race? sounds interesting

[Rcer19]

i talked to Brock tonight on this, so i will try and explain it here, try and follow,
Say you have 40 entries in open sprint, you divide them into 2 groups, each group has 20 cars
Group A runs 1 qualifier and Group B does the same, that sets the field,
Top 6 to A, next 6 to B, etc etc, You run with bump ups, You do the same for both groups, Winner of each group goes to "THE SHOW" we will call it, lol
Then you start to combine the groups, 2nd, 3rd and 4th from each A will be grouped, and so forth, then you run each main again, then take the top 4 out of the main, that makes 6 cars for "THE SHOW", then you randonly pick the guys and set up mains again, and the top 2 from that A will fill the field,
You actually have like 3 or 4 or 5 chances to make the A,
Sounds more complicated than it really is though, and it really does not take that much more time than running the same boring 2 rounds of qualifing,
Just a thought, thats all,

[Dan D]

i am in, as long as you guys take care of the calculating and organizing. a new/different format sounds like alot of fun. any idea on when this event is gonna happen?

[irocz69]

i am in, as long as you guys take care of the calculating and organizing. a new/different format sounds like alot of fun. any idea on when this event is gonna happen?

Nov. 7th.

[Dan D]

Thanks Keith, gives me plenty of time to rebuild the cars.

[Dave Mahr]

what Brian posted we did at the norca nat or the open wheel or one big race at Kranzels where the fastes car is on the pole for the 1 heat & the 2nd fastest car on the pole of the 2nd heat on down the line..does anyone remember what Todd Bodine did during qualifing the year he came up to Kranzels for a race?

[Cablemn]

I like Brians idea but only run the heats on everyones own time. The amount of extra time needed to line everyone up in every heat would be very time consuming. Resort the 2nd round the same way you did the 1st using the 1st round results. 3rd round if there is one could be done the same way. I to, am not familiar with the scoring software but if it can export the results in excel, we could write an excel file to do all the heat setup for us very easily. If it can't export, it still can be done with a little more manuel input.

Nick's idea doesn't sound bad either although it does sound a little more complicated to track. Maybe run 2 lap qualifiers to set the two groups, TQ group 1, 2nd group two and so on.

I am pretty good with excel. if you need my help, I'm there.

[signman501]

hi guys i didnt know where to find the date for this race? sounds interesting

First weekend in Nov. The 6th-7th. It is a sprint car only race.

I like the qualifing deal, however you do it. Run the heats on time and 50 - 60 lap mains. That would be a great show.

[Rcer19]

The Open Wheel race originially did run 2 lap time trials, but they were only used to set the heats, thats all, If your gonna run time trials, it would be better to find a way to make them mean something more, I do not like the idea of Fast time going straight to the A, any squirrel can find a nut, lol, there are alot of guys who can put 1 lap together,

[Cablemn]

First weekend in Nov. The 6th-7th. It is a sprint car only race.

I like the qualifing deal, however you do it. Run the heats on time and 50 - 60 lap mains. That would be a great show.

Now there is an idea!!! Bring fuel mileage into the equation.

[Dan D]

what would a good number of laps be? we have already run 50 plus in 4 min with limited and open sprints.

[Breckenridge]

what would a good number of laps be? we have already run 50 plus in 4 min with limited and open sprints.

Last year's open sprint main was 55 laps. 50 or 55 would be no problem for all classes. 60 would be pushing it in my opinion.

The problem with making it an endurance race is that drivers will pull their cars in right before the race for a refuel. Theres enough issues trying to get a race started without everyone pulling in for fuel, flaming out, restarting, trying to get lined back up, etc...

[signman501]

55 laps would be a good number. I don't have a problem with fuel milage anyway.

[irocz69]

The Open Wheel race originially did run 2 lap time trials, but they were only used to set the heats, thats all, If your gonna run time trials, it would be better to find a way to make them mean something more, I do not like the idea of Fast time going straight to the A, any squirrel can find a nut, lol, there are alot of guys who can put 1 lap together,

I agree w/Nick, anybody can put one lap together ! Although, I do like the time trial idea. I think if Chris decides to go that route, Brian's idea would better suit that format. From what i've seen on this thread racers are in favor of the time trial idea. Im in favor of whatever is decided !

GO FAST TURN LEFT ! Keith S.

[Teamt2c]

Now there is an idea!!! Bring fuel mileage into the equation.


If that happened how many of you would really back off to save fuel, LOL

[siggy99x]

If that happened how many of you would really back off to save fuel, LOL


Make the fuel line extra long and as large a diameter as you can. We use to do that at Syracuse for the Big Block race before they made a rule on it LOL!!!

[Rob Cutman]

The Open Wheel race originially did run 2 lap time trials, but they were only used to set the heats, thats all, If your gonna run time trials, it would be better to find a way to make them mean something more, I do not like the idea of Fast time going straight to the A, any squirrel can find a nut, lol, there are alot of guys who can put 1 lap together,


Close but not exactly right... The 92 Open Wheel Race (2nd one) at R&D we started with the time trial format. The way we did it their was you ran 4 laps and your best one counted. That seated you in a heat with fast guy on pole in heat 1, 2nd fast on pole in heat 2 etc. Same as Brian described and same as most full scale shows are done. We than ran 2 rounds of qualifying and put the top 6 after qualifying in the A. Those 6 got their times back and started the A in the order that they time trialed. This was before we ran dashes to determine starting order and it made it so the time trial actually meant something but you still had to qualify into the A through your heat. The top two in the B than started 7th and 8th on the grid for the A.

That first year I did all of it manually because we were still using the card system to post results. I know the format changed sometime after that and I dont remember when exactly. I only remember that far back for that race becuse I remember how much fun (work) it was....

Im sure whatever Chris comes up with will be interesting. On a somewhat related topic we are looking at a little different format for qualifying at the open wheel race this year as well. Still working out a few issues on it but look for some info by end of week.

Rob

[Rcer19]

Yes i remember the race at your place Rob, man that was a long time ago, lol
Cool, we are all anxious for info on the race, guess it being in our back yard again has alot to do with it,
THANKS< Lol

[bumps and jumps rc]

i talked to Brock tonight on this, so i will try and explain it here, try and follow,
Say you have 40 entries in open sprint, you divide them into 2 groups, each group has 20 cars
Group A runs 1 qualifier and Group B does the same, that sets the field,
Top 6 to A, next 6 to B, etc etc, You run with bump ups, You do the same for both groups, Winner of each group goes to "THE SHOW" we will call it, lol
Then you start to combine the groups, 2nd, 3rd and 4th from each A will be grouped, and so forth, then you run each main again, then take the top 4 out of the main, that makes 6 cars for "THE SHOW", then you randonly pick the guys and set up mains again, and the top 2 from that A will fill the field,
You actually have like 3 or 4 or 5 chances to make the A,
Sounds more complicated than it really is though, and it really does not take that much more time than running the same boring 2 rounds of qualifing,
Just a thought, thats all,

You lost me at try and follow :confused:

[bumps and jumps rc]

Man these are all awesome ideas - implementing them is that hard part
I have been talking with doug at rcscoring - I think I can do the qualifying time ok
I will have to drop people into heats manually - which is ok.
I think I can also figure out the qualifying points with help from doug.
What if we combine robs format with brians

Each car first runs a two lap time trial. Fastest lap counts. Fast time = 40 points, 2nd fast = 39 points etc...

Heats are set up with fast car going into heat 1, 2nd fastest car going into heat 2 etc... to ensure no "stacked" heats.

Two complete rounds of heats are run, each carrying similar weighting to the time trials. Fast time = 40 points, 2nd fast = 39 points etc... How many laps you run does not matter, only where you finish.

So after 1 round of time trials, and 2 rounds of heats, points are added up and used to seed the mains.

Top 6 in each class fall back to there qualifying time. - or we could eliminate points for qualifying and just use it to seat the heats and to fall back on to start the mains.

2 car bump ups in all lower mains.

The only down side I see is if you have one bad heat you are screwed.

Even though this is a 2 day event - meaning Friday is open practice I would like to keep the racing activity to just one day. I estimate about 2 hours per round of racing plus about 1.5 hours for time trials. That is about 7.5 hours of racing on Saturday, is there enough time to run 3 rounds 9.5 hours total?

[kerstetter]

The time trials are are gone to be real kool even to watch

[terry14]

i like the idea of three rounds. it might be better if someone does have a bad heat.

[siggy99x]

2 rounds and time trials is plenty

[team rc]

2 rounds and time trials is plenty
i agree,it makes for too long of a day with 5 hours of travel thrown in

[WADE ROWLEY]

Man these are all awesome ideas - implementing them is that hard part
I have been talking with doug at rcscoring - I think I can do the qualifying time ok
I will have to drop people into heats manually - which is ok.
I think I can also figure out the qualifying points with help from doug.
What if we combine robs format with brians

Each car first runs a two lap time trial. Fastest lap counts. Fast time = 40 points, 2nd fast = 39 points etc...

Heats are set up with fast car going into heat 1, 2nd fastest car going into heat 2 etc... to ensure no "stacked" heats.

Two complete rounds of heats are run, each carrying similar weighting to the time trials. Fast time = 40 points, 2nd fast = 39 points etc... How many laps you run does not matter, only where you finish.

So after 1 round of time trials, and 2 rounds of heats, points are added up and used to seed the mains.

Top 6 in each class fall back to there qualifying time. - or we could eliminate points for qualifying and just use it to seat the heats and to fall back on to start the mains.

2 car bump ups in all lower mains.

The only down side I see is if you have one bad heat you are screwed.

Even though this is a 2 day event - meaning Friday is open practice I would like to keep the racing activity to just one day. I estimate about 2 hours per round of racing plus about 1.5 hours for time trials. That is about 7.5 hours of racing on Saturday, is there enough time to run 3 rounds 9.5 hours total?

how about using best 2 out of 3 points results to seed the mains, that would allow for 1 bad run.

:revs:

[signman501]

Yes two rounds of heats and time trials. I get confused if I have too many heats.

[rj14]

Make the fuel line extra long and as large a diameter as you can. We use to do that at Syracuse for the Big Block race before they made a rule on it LOL!!!

haha, that won't work here. if the fuel line gets too long you will lose pressure and flame out.

[DaBearsNo13]

how about using best 2 out of 3 points results to seed the mains, that would allow for 1 bad run.

:revs:



I agree w/Wade! :D

[Breckenridge]

The only down side I see is if you have one bad heat you are screwed.



I thought you said in your first post that you wanted to make it like the full size races? What happens if you go to Williams Grove on a Friday night and have a bad heat? You are in the consi is what happens.

Still, there are a number of ways to make the "top 6" with the points system. Without figuring out all the mathmatical scenarios - a good time trial, a 1st heat win, and a 2nd heat dnf would probably still put you in the top 6.

I think 2 rounds is enough. If you run dashes for the top 6 in each class then everyone will have at least 3 races plus time trials and mains.

Whatever Chris desides to do it will be interesting. Time trials definitely add to the drama of a race like this.

[rj14]

Stick w/ the time trials, 2 rounds and mains.....you could weigh the 1st 3 finishers in the heats higher so if you do have a bad main it doesn't hurt as much. like this- 40, 35, 30, 25, 24, 23, 22 etc...

if you finish 3rd twice you will have 60 pts. if you win and finish 5th you will have 64 pts. Doesn't seem so bad now, does it?

[rj14]

Stick w/ the time trials, 2 rounds and mains.....you could weigh the 1st 3 finishers in the heats higher so if you do have a bad main it doesn't hurt as much. like this- 40, 35, 30, 25, 24, 23, 22 etc...

if you finish 3rd twice you will have 60 pts. if you win and finish 5th you will have 64 pts. Doesn't seem so bad now, does it?


only thing is now, there will be NO courtesy passing during the heats. Time is no longer a factor......EVERY POINT COUNTS!

[terry14]

only thing is now, there will be NO courtesy passing during the heats. Time is no longer a factor......EVERY POINT COUNTS!

just like in full scale racing:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Breckenridge]

only thing is now, there will be NO courtesy passing during the heats. Time is no longer a factor......EVERY POINT COUNTS!

I have been trying to think about how that would play out. On one hand, each car is on its own clock in the heats, so if someone is trying to pass you, they have likely already passed you on the clock. Some drivers might get a little too racey in the heats - not wanting to give up a position. On the other hand, hopefully everyone realizes the importance of finishing their heat which could make the racing cleaner. (It's hard to take someone else out without taking yourself out.)

[rj14]

I have been trying to think about how that would play out. On one hand, each car is on its own clock in the heats, so if someone is trying to pass you, they have likely already passed you on the clock. Some drivers might get a little too racey in the heats - not wanting to give up a position. On the other hand, hopefully everyone realizes the importance of finishing their heat which could make the racing cleaner. (It's hard to take someone else out without taking yourself out.)

I agree it is hard to take someone out w/o messing yourself up. BUT I think there will still be some feathers ruffled up w/ this format. I am hoping to run this event. I had a blast the last time I ran it. However if the format is like this, I know I can go to the stand knowing that this is still just a TOY CAR race. SOME people don't see it that way, I would hate to think that someone would get in my face over a mistake.

I am in support of this format. But everyone has got to realize that the potential for arguments will be there.

[irocz69]

I agree it is hard to take someone out w/o messing yourself up. BUT I think there will still be some feathers ruffled up w/ this format. I am hoping to run this event. I had a blast the last time I ran it. However if the format is like this, I know I can go to the stand knowing that this is still just a TOY CAR race. SOME people don't see it that way, I would hate to think that someone would get in my face over a mistake.

I am in support of this format. But everyone has got to realize that the potential for arguments will be there.

There is potential for arguement @ any race. Doesn't matter if its a big race or a weekly race. It's the competitive nature w/in us. We all have alot invested into this & no matter if its toy cars or real cars we all want to do well.

I do agree that mistakes are made & w/this format it will make things more interesting. We all have the same chances of things happening, but most of us, I think , understand that.

Now, the one w/the most pressure on him is Chris. All of us have thrown some pretty good ideas @ him, so it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. As far as your point system goes RJ, I think thats the way to go, but thats just my :twocents:.

GO FAST TURN LEFT ! Keith S.

[Breckenridge]

I agree it is hard to take someone out w/o messing yourself up. BUT I think there will still be some feathers ruffled up w/ this format. I am hoping to run this event. I had a blast the last time I ran it. However if the format is like this, I know I can go to the stand knowing that this is still just a TOY CAR race. SOME people don't see it that way, I would hate to think that someone would get in my face over a mistake.

I am in support of this format. But everyone has got to realize that the potential for arguments will be there.

Adding on to what Keith said, I would like to think that the racers we have in this community can handle racing each other for position. It happens on a weekly basis in the mains. With the usual "race the clock" qualifying format, every driver walks onto the drivers stand anticipating that perfect crash free run that's going to secure them a spot in the A. Then when that first crash happens, some of us throw our arms up in the air or slam our fist on the drivers stand railing because our perfect heat was ruined. Thankfully this is the minority. Most of us who have been around for a while realize there is always another race next week, next month, next year.

[Rob Cutman]

I dont see how this type of format would be any different than running for time. If a guy passes you and runs a faster time, he beats you. If a guy passes you and scores more points, he beats you. I really dont see a difference in the way the race should be run from the drivers perspective as far as letting another racer go, its really the same outcome. Maybe the races will be cleaner because the round is more likely to count for something and not be a throwout anyway.

[terry14]

the two heats thing is messing it all up.
1. youre qualifying time puts you in your heat
2. your finishing position from the heat puts you in a main
3. your finishing position from your main possibly bumps you up

it is a simple format. the problem is in order to do two heats you have to some how combine the two finishes. that is the issue. at a real race the stopwatch is not used after time trials, and points arn't awarded untill after the mains. its a great idea, just not sure how to do it. combining the heats puts everyone right back to some type of a qualifying type race. when the leader hits the line the race should start for everyone, then award points for positions finished. thats the only way to keep the qualifying lap format somewhat the same. your finishing position should be what determines your fait.

[Todd Putnam]

Last year's open sprint main was 55 laps. 50 or 55 would be no problem for all classes. 60 would be pushing it in my opinion.

The problem with making it an endurance race is that drivers will pull their cars in right before the race for a refuel. Theres enough issues trying to get a race started without everyone pulling in for fuel, flaming out, restarting, trying to get lined back up, etc...

Regarding Nitro fuel mileage for Open Classes / 4 minutes at Bumps and Jumps:
In Open Sprint I have run 58 laps, and in EDM I have run 59 (would've been 60 had I not driven over another car...whoops) in a 4 minute race, so 60 laps shouldn't be a problem on fuel. If refueling prior to the start of the main is a hassle, as Brian has pointed out, 55 laps is easily obtainable in the Open Mod classes. With the Limited TG's, fuel mileage is not an issue.

I like to idea of a different format. We have run some races this summer with different formats (time trials, etc ) and it really is a lot of fun.

Suggestion for heat finishing order / qualifying points: Instead of adding 40 points for first, 38 for second, etc; there is an easier way to do the math.

The way qualifying points work for on road or off road is they use your overall finishing position for the round as your points: First = 1 point, second = 2, etc. They just use the number of where you finished as your point value, eliminatiing the need to add additional numbers into the eqaution. Lower = better. Finishing order numbers are already there on the printouts, easier to do the math. Easier to follow too. You can use the position of how you finished in your heat race, OR how you qualified overall for the round, depending on the format you want to use.

In offroad, where track conditions change so much, they use qualifying points (how you finished for that particular round) to determine who makes the mains instead of single best run based on laps/time. This eliminates the "rocket round" where the track conditions are faster than the other rounds.
Say you run 3 rounds of qualifiers, but one round the track is 1-2 laps faster. If you don't get a good run in that "rocket" round, you're done. Under the qualifying point format, where you qualified overall in your best 2 out of 3 rounds is what sets up the mains, not your single fastest run.

Example: If you TQ round 1, you are awarded 1 point. If you TQ the second round as well you are awarded 1 point (2nd place gets 2, 3rd gets 3, etc) Your best 2 out of 3 rounds count.
If you wreck/get wrecked in the 3rd round, and it is the "rocket round" and 6 guys go faster than your previous TQ runs, this keeps you from getting bumped out of the A-Main. No sense in getting bumped out just because you didn't have your best run during the rocket round, especially if you outran the field in the first two rounds. If we run 3 rounds, they should all count the same regardless of track condition / speed of track.

Hope I explained that in a way it is easliy understood. :thumbsup:

[Rob Cutman]

Hope I explained that in a way it is easliy understood. :thumbsup:

I understand it perfectly........:thumbsup:

[Stetler17]

Example: If you TQ round 1, you are awarded 1 point. If you TQ the second round as well you are awarded 1 point (2nd place gets 2, 3rd gets 3, etc) Your best 2 out of 3 rounds count.
If you wreck/get wrecked in the 3rd round, and it is the "rocket round" and 6 guys go faster than your previous TQ runs, this keeps you from getting bumped out of the A-Main. No sense in getting bumped out just because you didn't have your best run during the rocket round, especially if you outran the field in the first two rounds. If we run 3 rounds, they should all count the same regardless of track condition / speed of track.



I like that!!! :thumbsup:

[siggy99x]

Regarding Nitro fuel mileage for Open Classes / 4 minutes at Bumps and Jumps:
In Open Sprint I have run 58 laps, and in EDM I have run 59 (would've been 60 had I not driven over another car...whoops) in a 4 minute race, so 60 laps shouldn't be a problem on fuel. If refueling prior to the start of the main is a hassle, as Brian has pointed out, 55 laps is easily obtainable in the Open Mod classes. With the Limited TG's, fuel mileage is not an issue.

I like to idea of a different format. We have run some races this summer with different formats (time trials, etc ) and it really is a lot of fun.

Suggestion for heat finishing order / qualifying points: Instead of adding 40 points for first, 38 for second, etc; there is an easier way to do the math.

The way qualifying points work for on road or off road is they use your overall finishing position for the round as your points: First = 1 point, second = 2, etc. They just use the number of where you finished as your point value, eliminatiing the need to add additional numbers into the eqaution. Lower = better. Finishing order numbers are already there on the printouts, easier to do the math. Easier to follow too. You can use the position of how you finished in your heat race, OR how you qualified overall for the round, depending on the format you want to use.

In offroad, where track conditions change so much, they use qualifying points (how you finished for that particular round) to determine who makes the mains instead of single best run based on laps/time. This eliminates the "rocket round" where the track conditions are faster than the other rounds.
Say you run 3 rounds of qualifiers, but one round the track is 1-2 laps faster. If you don't get a good run in that "rocket" round, you're done. Under the qualifying point format, where you qualified overall in your best 2 out of 3 rounds is what sets up the mains, not your single fastest run.

Example: If you TQ round 1, you are awarded 1 point. If you TQ the second round as well you are awarded 1 point (2nd place gets 2, 3rd gets 3, etc) Your best 2 out of 3 rounds count.
If you wreck/get wrecked in the 3rd round, and it is the "rocket round" and 6 guys go faster than your previous TQ runs, this keeps you from getting bumped out of the A-Main. No sense in getting bumped out just because you didn't have your best run during the rocket round, especially if you outran the field in the first two rounds. If we run 3 rounds, they should all count the same regardless of track condition / speed of track.

Hope I explained that in a way it is easliy understood. :thumbsup:


This is by far the best thing I have seen yet!!

[signman501]

You smart guys figure out how your going to do the race. I'm just going to be there and have fun.:D

[Breckenridge]

TP -

Nice idea - why didn't I think of that?

I think I was honed in on the idea of trying to create actual racing in the heats rather than running against the clock and hoping the other guys in your heat don't get in your way.

There seems to be some resistance to this concept though. Maybe I've just gone to so many real races over the years that my mindset is a little different.

Keeping track of the points with your system would definitely be much simpler. But with only two rounds at this race there will be no throw-out.

[Breckenridge]

Dang, TP - 1600th post ta' boot! :beer::beer::beer:

I thought I was feeling pretty special for getting to 200 and then sneaking past Kerstetter in post count.

[Todd Putnam]

Breckenridge:
I do like your idea of a format just like full scale races. :thumbsup:
-Time trials sets the heat lineups
-Heat finishing position sets up mains

I have actually pondered how to do it in a simple format for R/C for years, but can't come up with a simple, effective format.

One problem is a weekly race at the Grove isn't time trialing 100-200 cars in multiple classes. Also, I'm not sure if racing for position in a heat would really insure any cleaner racing vs. racing for laps/time in R/C - you still have 4 minutes to get as far forward in the heat as possible. Also, in full scale sprints, driver's "arses" and equipment are on the line, and don't take the abuse R/C cars do - so they drive with a totally different mentality.

I think there is a way to make the format work - just need to brainstorm - keep the ideas coming. In the meantime, any format "outside the norm" will add a different twist and some excitement, IMO- :thumbsup:

[Rcer19]

i am on board with the concept, I love the idea. What it does is keep someone who might have TQ'ed in the 1st round when the track was so so from being bumped in the 2nd round when the track is better,
IE:: like when we use to race at Walt's summer classic, 1 year i was TQ after 1st round and broke in 2nd and went to 33rd spot, lol, Keeps that from happening,
Besides that, we all know that not everyone gets the concept of timed racing in the heats and still wants to race the leaders or faster
What is also does if you stop and think about it, It actually gives different people a better chance of making the A who otherwise might not be able to or struggle to,

[rj14]

I think we have it weeded out.....I personally would rather just do 2 rounds, but either way I think TP has got it pretty much locked.

[kerstetter]

great Idea"s sounds like this is going to be a real fun day:thumbsup:

[Todd Putnam]

I think we have it weeded out.....I personally would rather just do 2 rounds, but either way I think TP has got it pretty much locked.

I was just posting what the on-road / off-road guys have done. I think with time trials, you could still use the format for 2 rounds. 3 rounds w/ time trials may take too long.

[shmeedel]

Also, in full scale sprints, driver's "arses" and equipment are on the line, and don't take the abuse R/C cars do - so they drive with a totally different mentality.

Yep! Never seen a full size car make laps backwards on the track! :blackflag:

I love the idea of time trials to set the heats and 2 heats with points to set the mains.:thumbsup:

[bumps and jumps rc]

Ok so let me get this straight

Each car first runs a two lap time trial. the heats are set up with fast car going into heat 1, 2nd fastest car going into heat 2 etc... to ensure no "stacked" heats.

Two rounds of heats are run, based on qualifying points. 1st=1 2nd=2 etc. with no reshuffle.

Top 6 in the A fall back to there qualifying time. and start in there proper position - so it puts an emphasis on the qualifying lap

2 car bump ups in all lower mains.

Did I miss anything?

[Breckenridge]

Ok so let me get this straight

Each car first runs a two lap time trial. the heats are set up with fast car going into heat 1, 2nd fastest car going into heat 2 etc... to ensure no "stacked" heats.

Two rounds of heats are run, based on qualifying points. 1st=1 2nd=2 etc. with no reshuffle.

Top 6 in the A fall back to there qualifying time. and start in there proper position - so it puts an emphasis on the qualifying lap

2 car bump ups in all lower mains.

Did I miss anything?

Chris -

I still like the idea of getting points for the time trials in addition to the heats. Fast time = 1 point, 2nd fast = 2 points etc... That way if you flame out on the 2nd lap of one of your heats you still can have a decent time trial value, along with your other heat to fall back on. Think of the time trials as just another round of qualifying.

Also, with Todd's system you could reshuffle after the first round if you wanted to.

What does everyone prefer as far as lining up the mains?
1. Based on lowest points
2. Based on time trials
3. Run A-main dashes
4. Run A-main dashes and draw for inversion

[rj14]

Chris -

I still like the idea of getting points for the time trials in addition to the heats. Fast time = 1 point, 2nd fast = 2 points etc... That way if you flame out on the 2nd lap of one of your heats you still can have a decent time trial value, along with your other heat to fall back on. Think of the time trials as just another round of qualifying.

Also, with Todd's system you could reshuffle after the first round if you wanted to.

What does everyone prefer as far as lining up the mains?
1. Based on lowest points
2. Based on time trials
3. Run A-main dashes
4. Run A-main dashes and draw for inversion

#4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;););)

actually only the drawing for inversion!

[Todd Putnam]

i am on board with the concept, I love the idea. What it does is keep someone who might have TQ'ed in the 1st round when the track was so so from being bumped in the 2nd round when the track is better,
IE:: like when we use to race at Walt's summer classic, 1 year i was TQ after 1st round and broke in 2nd and went to 33rd spot, lol, Keeps that from happening,
Besides that, we all know that not everyone gets the concept of timed racing in the heats and still wants to race the leaders or faster
What is also does if you stop and think about it, It actually gives different people a better chance of making the A who otherwise might not be able to or struggle to,

Agreed Nick. Walts was an all day (and night) race where only the last round mattered.

At the February Freeze @ Bumps last year:
- I TQ'd Ltd. Late Model with a 58 lap run in Round 1 Friday night, then was DQ'd for the light weight flywheel.
-I changed the flywheel, go out for Round 2 Saturday morning, was TQ for that round as well, but only ran 56 laps as the track was 2 laps slower.
-3rd Round Saturday afternoon, DNF.

I had the fastest car in the class for 2 of the 3 rounds, and didn't make the show - partially due to track conditions, partially to me being a big dummy...

[Todd Putnam]

Chris -

I still like the idea of getting points for the time trials in addition to the heats. Fast time = 1 point, 2nd fast = 2 points etc... That way if you flame out on the 2nd lap of one of your heats you still can have a decent time trial value, along with your other heat to fall back on. Think of the time trials as just another round of qualifying.

Also, with Todd's system you could reshuffle after the first round if you wanted to.

What does everyone prefer as far as lining up the mains?
1. Based on lowest points
2. Based on time trials
3. Run A-main dashes
4. Run A-main dashes and draw for inversion

I am with Brian. Count the time trial positions like a round of qualifiers (Fast time = 1, 2nd quick = 2, etc ) Then you can run Time trial, 2 rounds, (all on points system) and use the best 2 out of 3.

I vote for #4: Still run the A-Main dashes, and draw for inversion. :thumbsup:

[shmeedel]

Ok so let me get this straight

Each car first runs a two lap time trial. the heats are set up with fast car going into heat 1, 2nd fastest car going into heat 2 etc... to ensure no "stacked" heats.

Two rounds of heats are run, based on qualifying points. 1st=1 2nd=2 etc. with no reshuffle.

Top 6 in the A fall back to there qualifying time. and start in there proper position - so it puts an emphasis on the qualifying lap

2 car bump ups in all lower mains.

Did I miss anything?

Would the qualifying time only set you starting position within a main and not effect which main you start in?

[teopro27]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu5FF5BkrwY :)

[bumps and jumps rc]

Would the qualifying time only set you starting position within a main and not effect which main you start in?

Crap you lost me at Would :confused:

[Rcer19]

Mark, get the pen and paper out for him and draw it, LOL

[Breckenridge]

Did I miss anything?


Just for clarification of a few things - how does this look?

Each car first runs a two lap time trial. Both laps combined is your time. The heats are set up with fast car going into heat 1, 2nd fastest car going into heat 2 etc... to ensure no "stacked" heats.

Points are awarded in each class for time trials Fastest car = 1 point (or 0), 2nd fastest = 2 points etc.

Both rounds of heats are run with no reshuffle. In each class, points are awarded on time with the fastest car getting 1 (or 0) points, 2nd fastest = 2 points etc.

Each driver/car now has 3 point values. The lowest is dropped of the 3 and the remaining two are added. Lowest 6 combined for each class will run a cash dash prior to the mains. DASH LINEUP IS INVERTED BY POINTS. These cars are also obviously locked into the A-main.

*Ties - If two or more drivers are tied in points, the tie is broken their 3rd point value. If still tied, best heat time/laps.

6 car dashes (25 laps or 2 minutes if that it too much of a pain) are run for each class.

All mains are run with 2 car bump ups as usual. Bump ups always start 7th and 8th.

Top 6 in each main are lined up according to their best TT lap.

[bumps and jumps rc]

almost good
but running through rc scoring pro for the last couple hours
it will be impossible to break ties by the time trial.
It will be based on adding your tow best point totals.
With RC Pro going to the thousandth of a second I don't think we have to worry about how to break a double tie.

Also the A mains will be set by time trials - fastest car from trials has the pole.
Again - easiest way to do it with rc scoring pro.

Can't wait till it gets here

[siggy99x]

What time does practice start on Saturday Thanks

[Breckenridge]

You lost me at "almost"....lol

Adding the two best point totals will result in some ties. So it sounds like the tiebreaker will be best laps/time out of one of your two heats.

If you wanted to have a different starting line-up than what Scoring Pro provides, couldn't you just hand-write the actual starting positions on the printout? Either way is cool.

[Breckenridge]

I updated my earlier post. Should be right now. I can fix it again...just holler.

[bumps and jumps rc]

yes - I forgot one thing
The points awarded for time trials will be both of your laps added together - rc scoring thing.
example 2/8:05
But we will still use your fastest single lap to set the grid.

[siggy99x]

What time does practice start on saturday anyone??

[Smokinnitro]

What time does practice start on saturday anyone??

Doors open at 8am
There is practice Friday 10am to 8pm

[bumps and jumps rc]

yes he is right - sign up Friday for the race saturday and practice is included in entry

ONLY SPRINT CARS IN PRACTICE!!!

[rj14]

I say we play poker on Friday night for the qual order....and go from there. No-limit Hold Em. 1st out gets last place in the qual order and so on for all the classes you have entered.

So you can either take your lumps and go out early and sleep. OR you can fight it out for TQ, and have time to get your car ready when the doors open at 8!

[siggy99x]

ok so practice on saturday is 8 am? i cant make it friday thanks