1/8 LM DODC rules package?

[sps3172]

Does the DODC have any plans to publish a rule set for 1/8th LM?

I've read the debates over the NSCS rules and I realize that not everyone would be happy with any rules published but it makes sense for the DODC to compile something for the tracks that were willing to adopt them.

Is there an 'offical' word from DODC on this (i.e. we're working on them, or we choose to avoid this class entirely)?

- SS

[Rob Cutman]

The rules differences between the 1/8th scale communities right now are pretty diverse. Some common ground would have to be established in a few more areas to try to come up with any set of unified rules that will work and not alienate any particular group. I have no intention of picking a side in this discussion! I think in time it could happen and I would certainly like to see it myself. I have stated that if they could come up with something as a group that works we would be more than happy to include them in the National Rules.

[sps3172]

The rules differences between the 1/8th scale communities right now are pretty diverse. Some common ground would have to be established in a few more areas to try to come up with any set of unified rules that will work and not alienate any particular group. I have no intention of picking a side in this discussion! I think in time it could happen and I would certainly like to see it myself. I have stated that if they could come up with something as a group that works we would be more than happy to include them in the National Rules.

I haven't been involved in this 'discussion' but I can certainly respect your desire not to take sides *smile*!!

I was just curious where the DODC stood on this and couldn't find any 'offical' word. I think I agree that a 'wait and see' attitude is best. This class is fairly new....think how much 1/10th electric has changed since the days of the converted gold chassis RC-10!! :)

[plipitkc]

Rob,
What areas need more common ground?

Thanks

Phil

[Rob Cutman]

Rob,
What areas need more common ground?

Thanks

Phil

Just seems like there are some pretty big differences between Midwest rules opinions and those in the southeast. I have not interest in taking sides as I've said. I've never even driven an 1/8th scale car so I dont feel it would be fair for me to impart any of my experience in to rules for them, because I have none. :D

[donnie victor]

Hey Rob Come on down to Music City Raceway on the 25th of April. I have an extra car you a more than weclome to race. I have a Bomber you could race also. :thumbsup: ;) :revs: :greenflag:

[sps3172]

Just seems like there are some pretty big differences between Midwest rules opinions and those in the southeast. I have not interest in taking sides as I've said. I've never even driven an 1/8th scale car so I dont feel it would be fair for me to impart any of my experience in to rules for them, because I have none. :D

Rob,

Not sure how many tracks you consider part of the 'Midwest' but both Big Bill's and Smac Track (when it opens on 4/19) are using rules more consistant with the 'open' format used in the southeast.

Perhaps the DODC could offer some guidance by drafting 2 sets of rules? One speaking to the rubber tire 'NSCS' type standards....the other more 'open' like in the southeast. At least this way, a given track would be able to pick from 2 standards instead of brewing their own.

Case in point, the rules used at C&S for the Late Model Summernationals and the rules used in FDOS have slightly different 'specs' for side dam size, etc. It would be nice if there were a 'standard' for these sorts of things.

- SS

[Dlan44]

Just like all the other classes, it is going to take a group to sit down and develope a compromised set of rules and say here it is.
Sprint cars in both areas were different also, but DODC came up with an equitable compromise. I was faced with the same issues when RC Pro tried to have a Series. What I had in mind for 1/8 for the future (until RC Pro decided to not to continue support) was two classes. Super Late, and Limited Late. Super using Midwest/Florida engine rules and Limited using CS engine rules. Then for tires and aero letting the track set those. That would allow tracks hosting events to insure a draw from local racers and traveling racers only had to buy tires and lexan. If they couldn't afford that.....they couldn't afford to travel. The only thing then to worry about was engine costs in Super. If that got out of hand then there was always the option of a cost limit or "claimer". That would only be a last resort because many racers are opposed to claimers. Limit both classes to aluminum chassis baseplates, and shaft drive buggy type drivelines.

All you guys need is a 800lb. gorilla to say these are the rules and work from there.

[sps3172]

Just like all the other classes, it is going to take a group to sit down and develope a compromised set of rules and say here it is.
Sprint cars in both areas were different also, but DODC came up with an equitable compromise. I was faced with the same issues when RC Pro tried to have a Series. What I had in mind for 1/8 for the future (until RC Pro decided to not to continue support) was two classes. Super Late, and Limited Late. Super using Midwest/Florida engine rules and Limited using CS engine rules. Then for tires and aero letting the track set those. That would allow tracks hosting events to insure a draw from local racers and traveling racers only had to buy tires and lexan. If they couldn't afford that.....they couldn't afford to travel. The only thing then to worry about was engine costs in Super. If that got out of hand then there was always the option of a cost limit or "claimer". That would only be a last resort because many racers are opposed to claimers. Limit both classes to aluminum chassis baseplates, and shaft drive buggy type drivelines.

All you guys need is a 800lb. gorilla to say these are the rules and work from there.

I didn't realize that the engine situation was that big of a deal??? I've been led to believe that it's easy (and relatively cheap) to bolt way more power than you can use into a 1/8th Late Model. Is this not the case?

I envisioned 2 DODC rules packages for 1/8th.....one with no side dams and the popular rubber spec tires....the other with side dams and open tire and chassis rules. The DODC 1/10th sprint car rules are in a similiar format to this now. There's a different aero package (7x7 wing) for rubber tire rules than for foams (6x6 wing), etc.

[plipitkc]

I know the issues are and probably won't stick my nose up unless someone asked me to.

Phil

[cycleeric]

Is there a drawing available of the maximum rear spoiler for the 1/8 limited cars?

[plipitkc]

Mike Ottinger had posted those rules with drawings on a different thread.

[Dlan44]

Being stuck where there is no racing right now, I brought some cars to finish in my spare time. With pieces enough for two L8te Models spread out trying to decide to build them for NSCS or the Limited class for the Latemodel race at C&S, this thread came to mind.................

Considering the "Committe" that put the DODC rules together, only two that I could think of had ANY vested interest in 1/8 scales........Sonny Brown and Chad Smith. They are somewhat at opposite ends of the specrtum with Sonny a more RTR cost effective side and Chad more of a freedom to innovate kind of guy. I believe they have also raced these cars several times.............

If they could come up with a set of rules together thay might be pretty good. HOPEFULLY one class........but there would probably be two. It might split the class, but maybe it could draw everyone together slowly.................

If this could be done then DODC would become the 800lb Gorilla in the room and it would be up to us to SHUT UP AND RACE in order to preserve and grow the class. It can be done.........but we will have to work together.

[racerjmh]

East coast limiteds are NSCS legal cars with only a tire and possibly sidedam change. and the open cars are cool, too. Around my area NSCS is king. And it is cost effective.And I am sure the top guys in nscs could take their cars back east and adapt and be fast with what they have. Bolt on some foams and a side dam and use a bigger restrictor or none at all in the carbs. Maybe it's just me but I like all racing and racers.

Jim

[Dano628]

East coast limiteds are NSCS legal cars with only a tire and possibly sidedam change. and the open cars are cool, too. Around my area NSCS is king. And it is cost effective.And I am sure the top guys in nscs could take their cars back east and adapt and be fast with what they have. Bolt on some foams and a side dam and use a bigger restrictor or none at all in the carbs. Maybe it's just me but I like all racing and racers.

Jim
I agree with you 100%

[sps3172]

Being stuck where there is no racing right now, I brought some cars to finish in my spare time. With pieces enough for two L8te Models spread out trying to decide to build them for NSCS or the Limited class for the Latemodel race at C&S, this thread came to mind.................

Considering the "Committe" that put the DODC rules together, only two that I could think of had ANY vested interest in 1/8 scales........Sonny Brown and Chad Smith. They are somewhat at opposite ends of the specrtum with Sonny a more RTR cost effective side and Chad more of a freedom to innovate kind of guy. I believe they have also raced these cars several times.............

If they could come up with a set of rules together thay might be pretty good. HOPEFULLY one class........but there would probably be two. It might split the class, but maybe it could draw everyone together slowly.................

If this could be done then DODC would become the 800lb Gorilla in the room and it would be up to us to SHUT UP AND RACE in order to preserve and grow the class. It can be done.........but we will have to work together.

I think Dlan44 is on the right track here. I understand that 1 set of rules wouldn't keep everyone happy. But it seems that 2 sets would cover the majority and get us on the way to some sort of standard.

Rob...any comments?

[Dlan44]

To run Limited the NSCS guys would have to buy tires and an engine. To run open they would have to buy tires, add a side dam, and may have to buy one ways and/or Torsen's to be competetive since they run stock diffs.

In the beginning the cars were basically out of the box RTR's with spec tires and a latemodel body. Now they are box stock chassis with almost any engine and at least 6 different "spec" tire combinations. They have controlled the cost to a degree and the racing is good. The only issues I have heard within NSCS is that some of the new guys having problems getting a handle on the beast. Eventually they do, but in the interum it can be a challenge negotiating your way through traffic.

I really do think a compromised rule set is needed for the class. The key being the compromise.

[donnie victor]

The NSCS rules are the best and will work at all tracks. So there is no need for any other. LOL.

[JW8]

They do work at all tracks the NSCS races at. I hope that does not get me punched out....lol

[Dlan44]

The NSCS rules are the best and will work at all tracks. So there is no need for any other. LOL.

They do work at all tracks the NSCS races at. I hope that does not get me punched out....lol


I hope you guys are just kidding, but in a forum like this you are the only one that knows for sure.

Either way "cute" comments will never pave a road to compromise, nor Nationally accepted rules for this class. Until then, have fun racing against the same guys on the same tracks week after week. I have fun when I can and don't race that often, but some guys race week after week. It would really be nice to race different tracks and guys and grow this class...........unless you think it is big enough.

Personally I would like to see it get huge nation wide.

How long has it been since ANY MAJOR MANUFACTURER gave Dirt oval ANY ATTENTION!!!

Even with a slumping economy Ofna and Losi both are recognising us. Only we can screw this up. Put the ego's aside and lets be smart for a change.

[JW8]

I completely agree. I have always thought that good solid discussion is healthy. But compromise is two sided. Many on this topic are not so much open to listening as they are pounding their own agenda. Why not just have NSCS Lates and Open Lates. You have Limited Sprints and Sprints in the DODC nitro racing. Allow people to race what they feel like looks like their form of racing.

Jeff

[sps3172]

Here's another point to consider, in the spirit of discussion....

I think everyone would probably agree that we don't want this class (or classes) to turn into a horsepower war. In some cases, reduced traction of a spec tire is the means used to control this variable. In other cases, 'spec' engines have been listed in the rules. I think all of this is a great idea, but perhaps, misses the heart of the issue....

In all other forms of nitro RC car racing, fuel capacity is regulated fairly closely. Right now, most cars have HUGE tanks (140-150cc) and the heats are fairly short (4 minutes). This means that, provided enough traction, a guy can take advantage of an exotic, modified, EXPENSIVE engine. If, for example, I only had 125cc of fuel (the standard for ALL other forms of 1/8th nitro racing) and had to finish a 5 minute heat, perhaps there would be no reason to spend money on the 'hot' motor as I'd have to detune it (restrictor, pipe, clutch) to finish the heat anyway. Perhaps we'd find that even smaller capacity would be require to start to show an equalizing effect but that should at least describe my point.

Does anyone else see a benefit or detriment to this sort of rule?

[tmr22]

East coast limiteds are NSCS legal cars with only a tire and possibly sidedam change. and the open cars are cool, too. Around my area NSCS is king. And it is cost effective.And I am sure the top guys in nscs could take their cars back east and adapt and be fast with what they have. Bolt on some foams and a side dam and use a bigger restrictor or none at all in the carbs. Maybe it's just me but I like all racing and racers.

Jim

East coast cars are not NSCS legal. We allow technology and innovation in all of our 8 scale classes. If it were not for technology and innovation then there will be only 2 manufactures. Losi and Ofna. We would like to see many manufactures involved in 8 scale racing. That is how racing grows. This is only my opinion. It will be a challenge to come up with a uniformed set of rules but hey nobody thought a man could get put on the moon but guess what, it happened. With technology and innovation.

[donnie victor]

If it werent for innovators and dreamers like Tim said, we would all be driving Taxi's. Thank God we have innovators like Nick Antonovich, Chad Smith, Bruce Triplett, Rob Brewster, and many others like them. With out these guys and others like them, this class would have died already. We need rules that promote innovations. We need larger and safer race tracks also. What we do not need is rules that limit our imaginations. :revs: :greenflag:

[Rob Cutman]

Rocket Ship's or Taxi's???

If it werent for innovators and dreamers like Tim said, we would all be driving Taxi's. Thank God we have innovators like Nick Antonovich, Chad Smith, Bruce Triplett, Rob Brewster, and many others like them. With out these guys and others like them, this class would have died already. We need rules that promote innovations. We need larger and safer race tracks also. What we do not need is rules that limit our imaginations. :revs: :greenflag:

For this segment to grow and continue to be healthy you need both or Neither! There are generally two types of racers at each end of the spectrum. The ones who have and are willing to spend plenty of money, time, and effort on their SPORT. And those who have limited time, money and effort to spend on their HOBBY. Rules either need to allow both racers to each have a class to run, or a suitable compromise of these two combinations. Having just one class from either end of that spectrum usually doesnt last too long. If its high dollar cars that require high dollar effort than low dollar racers go away. If its budget minded economical racing the high dollar, high effort racers end up ruining it. After almost 30 years doing this it has alwyas come down to these scenarios in my experience.

Rob

[tmr22]

Rocket Ship's or Taxi's???



For this segment to grow and continue to be healthy you need both or Neither! There are generally two types of racers at each end of the spectrum. The ones who have and are willing to spend plenty of money, time, and effort on their SPORT. And those who have limited time, money and effort to spend on their HOBBY. Rules either need to allow both racers to each have a class to run, or a suitable compromise of these two combinations. Having just one class from either end of that spectrum usually doesnt last too long. If its high dollar cars that require high dollar effort than low dollar racers go away. If its budget minded economical racing the high dollar, high effort racers end up ruining it. After almost 30 years doing this it has alwyas come down to these scenarios in my experience.

Rob

I agree with you Rob.

[JW8]

Well sounds really close to the suggestion of having the two classes. I think there were some names left off the people that have helped this grow. There were a group of racers in this part of the country (Doug Gaut and Jeff Harper) that were testing Losi cars and help lead to a major manufacture to get into producing an over the counter Dirt Oval car. Something that has helped the racing here in NSCS country in terms of car count and shops carrying the kits and parts. No matter what your rules or thoughts are you have to cater to your customers. If you are thriving with a certain rule set then keep running what you are doing. Every form of racing tweeks year to year and looks at the current rule set. But rules need to fit your racers and tracks. The first step to people coming together is respect. When both sides are able to respect what the other does then people are much more able to work towards a common goal. In the last year or so the numerous attacks and jabs about what it real racing and racers gets people on tilt. I think it is cool that people love this class and that in different parts of the country it looks different. Racing boils down to who has the most talent and no matter how much or how little we spend the talented racers win.

[donnie victor]

Three things that all racers have to deal with to make our cars compete. To save this class there has to be two classes. Limited - (RTR's) including non modded .21s. Outlaw - modded .21 and .28s. Tires, side dams, spoilers, and bodies would be up to the track owners to decide. Thats simple enough. ;)

[JW8]

I know I run a Dynamite .26 engine in my NSCS LM. I know others run stuff like the 427 Losi engine. They work well with the NSCS rules and are great power/cost engines. Is there a reason to not allow them with the NSCS style cars? I do not see the engine being an issue where we are racing. But some reasons would be good to see what others think. The thought of the NSCS is that the type of tire used limits the amount of HP that can be used. Thus making the need for high end or modded engines less of an option. I know the NSCS allows RTR .15 engines in Sprint to allow for less costly options for racers getting into it or just people with limited cash to spend. Once again the thoughts are allow people to get hooked and then they can spend more money on engines as they get more into the hobby or when money allows.

Jeff

[Dlan44]

Rocket Ship's or Taxi's???



For this segment to grow and continue to be healthy you need both or Neither! There are generally two types of racers at each end of the spectrum. The ones who have and are willing to spend plenty of money, time, and effort on their SPORT. And those who have limited time, money and effort to spend on their HOBBY. Rules either need to allow both racers to each have a class to run, or a suitable compromise of these two combinations. Having just one class from either end of that spectrum usually doesnt last too long. If its high dollar cars that require high dollar effort than low dollar racers go away. If its budget minded economical racing the high dollar, high effort racers end up ruining it. After almost 30 years doing this it has alwyas come down to these scenarios in my experience.

Rob

You are exactly right Rob. You along with the others involved did an EXCELLENT job with the Sprint rules. You guys compromised with wings and width for the guys running buggy tires on loose surfaces. The limited class was a success too. It has turned into a class where the regular racer without factory ties has a chance of making the Big Show at the open wheel.
This type of thinking could generate a set of 1/8 rules as well for one or two classes. Actually I would like to see CW join the wars with a Domin8tor. (use the name and gimme the first one 8>)

Three things that all racers have to deal with to make our cars compete. To save this class there has to be two classes. Limited - (RTR's) including non modded .21s. Outlaw - modded .21 and .28s. Tires, side dams, spoilers, and bodies would be up to the track owners to decide. Thats simple enough. ;)

Excellent idea Donnie. But their are enough molded bodies out there now I would stay away from the folded ones. They are limited in numbers and mostly have regional availability. Nationally they need to be available to everyone and be no larger than the molded ones. I have seen some running that looked like they needed a harbor pilot to get through traffic. Bodies is one way to keep the field level, and have cars that look similar for any spectators or prospective new racers. They don't need to even think they have to have something custom made, or we could scare someone off.

I know I run a Dynamite .26 engine in my NSCS LM. I know others run stuff like the 427 Losi engine. They work well with the NSCS rules and are great power/cost engines. Is there a reason to not allow them with the NSCS style cars? I do not see the engine being an issue where we are racing. But some reasons would be good to see what others think. The thought of the NSCS is that the type of tire used limits the amount of HP that can be used. Thus making the need for high end or modded engines less of an option. I know the NSCS allows RTR .15 engines in Sprint to allow for less costly options for racers getting into it or just people with limited cash to spend. Once again the thoughts are allow people to get hooked and then they can spend more money on engines as they get more into the hobby or when money allows.

Jeff

Jeff, very good point.......but there is a flaw. The #1 complaint I hear (and even though I haven't been racing lately, I hear allot from all over the country) is that the "experienced" guys complaining about getting hammered by a new guy. ask anyone that has worked in ANY shop what are the two questions asked EVERY TIME by a new racer........
(1) Which is the fastest?
(2) How much does it cost?
We have all learned........but they haven't.....that if you are slow because of skill or set up that horsepower can't fix it.
Though "spec" tires limited the NEED for horsepower, it didn't eliminate the desire. It was better with ONE tire.........but now the combinations are growing.
The ABSOLUTE BEST thing that could happen is to provide a limited class, with limited horsepower and provide as stable a platform as you can for the racers with LIMITED experience or MONEY. Stabalizing the platform couls be done by side dams, or better tires. Like Donnie said, let the track set these rules because he knows his surface, and what his local guys have. After all, those are the only ones he can depend on for a big event. Traveling racers will adapt.........they always do. this limited class needs to be basic shaft drive aluminum chassis and be as close to factory as reasonable. Most of all ANY DRIVERS WITH MANUFACTURER HELP SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN ANY PROTOTYPE PIECES ie. TIRES, DIFFS, SHOCKS, SPRINGS etc. THAT THE OTHER RACERS CAN'T BUY OFF THE WALL. That will stop the complaining about Billy Bob getting trick tires or springs from Manufacturtr Joe. Limited should be just that ....LIMITED!

For the innovaters.........let them run a more open class. Any diff, engine, home made widget. KEEP THE BASE ALUMINUM CHASSIS AND SHAFT DRIVES so a guy wanting to move up can as economically as possible.
For safety.......keep their speed down with tire and/or aero limits if necessary. Once again the track owner can control this. Some tracks can handle the speed......some can't. DODC should only step in if safety becomes an issue.

[Dlan44]

Some of you may have seen these a LONG time ago (two years). Some of you may have NEVER seen them. These are the Very First set of 1/8 latemodel rules ever published Nationally in an attempt to compromise EVERYONES existing rules into one class.

1/8 Scale 4WD Late Model:

Dimensions/Weight:
Wheelbase maximum, 13.2”, minimum 11”
Maximum Track width 13.5”.
Maximum overall length, 28.7”.
Minimum Weight, 8lbs.

Chassis/Body:
Any 1/8 scale 4wd shaft drive (buggy type) chassis.
Chassis must be stock, OEM or aftermarket aluminum or alloy, with stock engine/suspension mounting locations.
Fuel tank maximum capacity of 150cc
Fuel tank must be in STOCK location.

ANY 1/8 scale late model body.
Molded rear Late Model wing or rear spoiler with 3” maximum chord and 1.5” maximum height side panels (above chord) with a length not to exceed cord of the spoiler is allowed.
Left side panel is allowed no farther forward than the roof “A” pillar with a maximum length not exceeding .5” past rear spoiler and a maximum height of 5.5” above top of the body deck.
Windows may be cut out, but roof, A, B and/or C roof pillars must be left intact.
Cut outs for fuel tank, carburetor tuning, and glow plug access are allowed.
Tire tread/surface must be COMPLETELY COVERED when viewed from above the car.
Body maximum width at widest point shall not exceed 13.5”.

Engines:

ANY .21ci, OR RTR ENGINE up to .28ci.
NOTE:
THERE WILL BE A $300 CLAIMER RULE ON ALL ENGINES IN THIS CLASS!
A competitor may claim any competitors (limit 1) engine that finishes ahead of him IN HIS MAIN for $300 CASH after the completion of the mains. The claimed engine shall be presented to the claimer less clutch, flywheel, air cleaner and header. Anyone failing to do so will be disqualified.
Carburetors MUST HAVE a return device (spring, rubber band) to close the carburetor in the event the linkage comes off.
Any exhaust providing it does not exceed track noise limitations. (Maximum 85db. Recommended).



Tires/Wheels:
ANY TIRE except for capped, silicone coated/impregnated or sectioned (tires cut up and glued back together).
ANY wheel is allowed, with a maximum wheel diameter of 3.4”, minimum diameter of 3.2”.



The biggest problem we had at the time was the engine rule. The only cure here is either, TWO CLASSES, or limit the cost of the engines. Claimer is the easiest way to tech, and to prevent cheating, but many people do not like claimers of ANY KIND.

The areas in RED are those that i would probably change.
When these rules were written there was only one molded body and most were folded. Some looked cool, some were HUGE, and some were HIDIOUS.
Today I would either make it "Molded ONLY" or have a strict box to limit length, width, fender & roof height.
The other thing would be to let the track set the aero and tire rule with side dams being RECOMMENDED on any Limited Class.

As you may see...........these rules are still very close to rules across the country today. With a little tweeking and compromise you could use these as a boiletplate for one.....or two classes.

[donnie victor]

Spec tire rules are designed to prevent engine wars. Using a spec tire to limit traction is fine for the experienced racer. But it sure makes it hard on the new guy trying to setup his race car. I support engine rules instead of a spec tire rule.

[RacerX11]

I have been watching this thread for a while and I have a suggestion. You all know that the 1/10 scale limited cars can only run a Box stock OS .12 TG. Why don't you take that approach and choose a Motor for 1/8 scale classes and run that out of the box stock for limited classes. That way everyone has the same motor and puts racing down to the driver and setup. It is working in the 1/10 scale, it may work in 1/8 scale too. This can get a start on a national rulebook for 1/8 scale classes. More rules can be worked on later. this here can be a good start for you 1/8 scale guys.

[Dlan44]

I have been watching this thread for a while and I have a suggestion. You all know that the 1/10 scale limited cars can only run a Box stock OS .12 TG. Why don't you take that approach and choose a Motor for 1/8 scale classes and run that out of the box stock for limited classes. That way everyone has the same motor and puts racing down to the driver and setup. It is working in the 1/10 scale, it may work in 1/8 scale too. This can get a start on a national rulebook for 1/8 scale classes. More rules can be worked on later. this here can be a good start for you 1/8 scale guys.

They basically do that at C&S in North Carolins, but other places want to run the .28 RTR engines etc and slow them down with no side dams and spec tires. Like Donnie said it makes it hard on the new guys. The same guys that buy into this scenario then complain about the new guys taking them out. The spec tires did have some validity in cost savings when there was only one tire, now with the addition of another tire and multiple insert combinations they are less cost effective.
There are valid arguements all around. What works for some, doesn't for others.

Like I have said before to Git R Done it is going to either take compromise, which means scrapping the "my way is best" attitude, OR for DODC rules makers like Rob, Sonny, Chad, etc. that have some experience with these cars........and compromise.....to say HERE THEY ARE......then tweek them as required.

[JW8]

The comment about the spec tires worked better before the allowing of the new tires/inserts. There have been several that have said it worked to prevent the need for an engine rule. Then why not just go back to one set of tires. Ofna makes the premount tire in spoked and dish wheel. Same tire and insert. Having a tire rule is cheaper to get people to switch to then an engine rule is. Things like tires and bodies are simpler things to control then engines.

[tmr22]

The comment about the spec tires worked better before the allowing of the new tires/inserts. There have been several that have said it worked to prevent the need for an engine rule. Then why not just go back to one set of tires. Ofna makes the premount tire in spoked and dish wheel. Same tire and insert. Having a tire rule is cheaper to get people to switch to then an engine rule is. Things like tires and bodies are simpler things to control then engines.

What do you do about the Losi tire?

[JW8]

Allow them in your open classes at the tracks like ours that foams will not work.

[sps3172]

I have been watching this thread for a while and I have a suggestion. You all know that the 1/10 scale limited cars can only run a Box stock OS .12 TG. Why don't you take that approach and choose a Motor for 1/8 scale classes and run that out of the box stock for limited classes. That way everyone has the same motor and puts racing down to the driver and setup. It is working in the 1/10 scale, it may work in 1/8 scale too. This can get a start on a national rulebook for 1/8 scale classes. More rules can be worked on later. this here can be a good start for you 1/8 scale guys.

The problem with this is that everyone 'still' doesn't have the same motor. Some are always better than others. If the racing gets serious, this can get WAY more expensive than running open engine rules. Some guys would be willing to buy a pile of engines just to find the good ones. Nitro engines are just like that. Plus, not wanting to buy a 'different' engine is commonly given as a reason for not racing at a given track, etc. I does seem to work with 1/10th, I admit. This may not be an issue with the 1/10th cars because as 2WD, the power differences aren't as obvious??

No one commented on limiting fuel capacity, but it seems silly to reinvent the wheel. Controlling the fuel in the car DIRECTLY controls the power you can use.....the need for 'spec' engines would go right out the window and you wouldn't force anyone to buy a 'specific' engine to race a given class.

Again, it's been used and seems to be working in the other, more established, forms of nitro racing for years.

I have a hunch that if the proper fuel capacity were matched with the 'standard' heat length, we would find that in 'loose track' situations (where the NSCS type tire seems to limit power via traction) things wouldn't change much. You could make run time with just about any engine you wanted. But, in higher bite, 'foam tire' scenarios, completing a heat would be a challange and you would have to adjust your setup (via carb restrictor, pipe/header choice, clutch, gearing) effectively 'detuning' the really hot engine. One would have the option of runing a fully 'uncorked' mild (read as CHEAP) engine and be no slower that 'HOT' (read as EXPENSIVE) engine that had to be restricted to make run time.

I think this might be a great 'first' common national rule.

[donnie victor]

It would be nice if everyone could get thier cars started at the same time. Most of the time there is always one guy and we all know that guy, he cant ever get his car started on time, so we idle around the track until he can make the show. Then we all have to come back to the pit to get refueled. Then some ones car is loaded up and stalls, and here we go again. I dont think fuel limit is the way to go. IMO

[93TA]

It would be nice if everyone could get thier cars started at the same time. Most of the time there is always one guy and we all know that guy, he cant ever get his car started on time, so we idle around the track until he can make the show. Then we all have to come back to the pit to get refueled. Then some ones car is loaded up and stalls, and here we go again. I dont think fuel limit is the way to go. IMO


there's a real simple solution to that.... don't wait for anyone... when the x number of minutes are up... the race should start no matter who is or isn't on the track.

[Doug Gaut]

Wow, finally something the NSCS does do correctly. ;)

Until representatives of the different groups attend races at each group's tracks there really is no way for people to comprehend whats going on at each location. I think the surfaces are simply way different as well as what each group is trying to achieve from their racing. Some guys just want to go as fast as possible no matter what it costs or what upgrades it takes to do it. There are other guys that like the more realistic look of how the cars drive on loose dirt and the simpleness of a basic buggy.

Just like I would have a few questions regarding the rules for out east. It says buggy based chassis, well I have seen pictures of some of these chassis guys are home building and they are no where near what came on the factory released car let alone factory locations so what constitutes a buggy based chassis? Some even have a conglomeration of parts from different cars. Not that its right or wrong but the rules do not say anything about doing this.
How does the spec engine deal work out if you can put all the power down? In my eyes this would mean guys are going to push them to the limit with nitro percentages and temps to get more speed and power than the next guy killing them in one race day just like in the old 19t electric days where you bought 10 motors to find that one special one for a big event, turned it down to the smallest comm size you could that would last one day then you also sourced the highest voltage battery to put behind it and charged it at twice the recommended rates to the point they were ready to blow up. This made the cars ballistic but that battery was junk after that weekend and the comm was gone on the motor but who cares, you still were fast on race day right?

As for the spec tire deal. On the NSCS tracks I have attended this year the Losi and the Ofna tire has been equally fast which is why James allowed them in. Its more about setup and power delivery than the tire. As for the different combo's, go for it and buy every combo you can imagine. What you will find is the performance difference is so minimal that its a waste of money. I like the Ofna with yellow inserts. Jeff Harper likes the Ofna with orange inserts on the same tracks and our lap times will reflect the same times as well. Its not like the old touring car days where you had to have 7 sets of Sorex 36s with different inserts depending on track bite or track temps. I can say that the Ofna tire with a thin insert and large airgap has less traction on loose dirt tracks so thats why I dont just run the premounts. Besides, the molded inserts last for years where the stock foam breaks down rather quickly. Just last weekend in Tulsa I ran the same tires in the main as I ran at 90% of the tracks last year including the Big Bills race, King of the Wings event, Joplin events, etc. The other time I ran the orange inserted tires just because that was the first set of tires I bought for the car and once I tried a set with yellow inserts in them I liked them better. If the class went to premounts only that would not hurt my feelings because I dont like gluing tires any more than the next person.

If you ask any of the NSCS and NON-NSCS racers in the Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska areas they will say the low cost of getting into the cars (compared to other forms of racing), the realistic looks of the cars as they roll onto the right front going into corners then 4wheel drift off, as well as the emphasis on driving and less on buying aftermarket parts are just a few things that attracted them to the class.

At the last Sooner series race there were two racers that made the A main that had never driven an 1/8 late model before that day let alone and 1/8 period. Then just last weekend in Tulsa another guy that had never raced 1/8 made the A main as well. They were not complete new guys but still had never driven them before. As for the comment of new guys beating up the more experienced racers, thats what the sportsman class is for but the cars are identical so once they feel comfortable they dont have to puchase anything, just sign up for the other class. Even the more experienced guys have wrecks and take each other out from time to time, its going to happen and I think happens more in the experienced class. LOL

Is a compromise possible, I would hope so but before anything could be settled reps from all the regions should attend races at all of the tracks be it in Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Florida, Tennessee, North Carolina because it would not be fair to make rules without the proper knowledge as to why racers are doing particular things in each of these areas. Without the racers support you would have nothing. And dont kid yourself, there are WAY MORE people that race 1/8 late models that come on here and read but dont post than ones that do post for fear of all the reprocussions. Some of us are just too stupid to realize what they already know. :rolleyes: Good luck to all.

[tmr22]

Just like I would have a few questions regarding the rules for out east. It says buggy based chassis, well I have seen pictures of some of these chassis guys are home building and they are no where near what came on the factory released car let alone factory locations so what constitutes a buggy based chassis? Some even have a conglomeration of parts from different cars. Not that its right or wrong but the rules do not say anything about doing this.

Doug,

It is buggy based. It uses every suspension component that a buggy has. The only thing different is the chassis plate. If the rules say you have to run the car the way it came out of the box then that is different. But it doesn't. It says buggy based.

[Doug Gaut]

Okay, well that makes sense. Thanks. Thinking hypothetically here, what happens if a guy shows up with an offset chassis, front end from a Losi, center from an Xray and a rear end from a Associated car?

The NSCS does not have it written that you must keep the suspension locations stock either but if you talk to the racers that is the assumption. If you consider the basis of the rules package for the NSCS it would lead one to believe that the cars should remain on stock chassis plates since you cannot install oneway bearings or other major modifications and I would consider a chassis plate that moves the engine, suspension, fuel tank and radio tray a major modification but thats just my perception.

This also leads me to the next question, what happens when the first manufacturer of a car comes out with a bad to the bone, 1/8 dominator car so to say and it totally obsoletes every other car on the market right now since there are no real rules regarding suspension locations, drive train, shocks? Will it be legal in the NSCS? Will it be legal in the FDOS? Will it be legal in the ONS?

Dont say this happens in the Offroad industry either because if you look at an IFMAR rule book it spells everything out in black and white right down to the exhaust pipe. All buggies have to play within these guidelines.

These are all questions that need to be addressed by all the series leaders.

[donnie victor]

Doug and Tim I think if it comes down to some exotic chassis that whoops every bodies butt. Then it will have to be addressed to outlaw them the following year. I would put it to a vote at the drivers meetings. Until it is a problem of domination of the class I say they are legal. :revs: :greenflag:

[smitty]

Doug G. "This also leads me to the next question, what happens when the first manufacturer of a car comes out with a bad to the bone, 1/8 dominator car so to say and it totally obsoletes every other car on the market right now since there are no real rules regarding suspension locations, drive train, shocks? Will it be legal in the NSCS? Will it be legal in the FDOS? Will it be legal in the ONS?"

With Losi recent releases such as the "smart diff", the Losi version of the one-way and a new spec tire, it seems that Losi may be looking to develop the L8ate in to the "1/8 Dominator". They have spent a lot of money and time to develop the car (not to mention the other dirt oval support they have given the other classes) if their car was that car, would it be legal in the NSCS, FDOS or the ONS...............I hope so.

Just like the DODC rules they are there, you may choose to use them or not, they are a good standardization of rules for the 1/10 cars.

chad

[tmr22]

Okay, well that makes sense. Thanks. Thinking hypothetically here, what happens if a guy shows up with an offset chassis, front end from a Losi, center from an Xray and a rear end from a Associated car?

The NSCS does not have it written that you must keep the suspension locations stock either but if you talk to the racers that is the assumption. If you consider the basis of the rules package for the NSCS it would lead one to believe that the cars should remain on stock chassis plates since you cannot install oneway bearings or other major modifications and I would consider a chassis plate that moves the engine, suspension, fuel tank and radio tray a major modification but thats just my perception.

This also leads me to the next question, what happens when the first manufacturer of a car comes out with a bad to the bone, 1/8 dominator car so to say and it totally obsoletes every other car on the market right now since there are no real rules regarding suspension locations, drive train, shocks? Will it be legal in the NSCS? Will it be legal in the FDOS? Will it be legal in the ONS?

Dont say this happens in the Offroad industry either because if you look at an IFMAR rule book it spells everything out in black and white right down to the exhaust pipe. All buggies have to play within these guidelines.

These are all questions that need to be addressed by all the series leaders.

What you just said in this post Doug, is exactly what Mike Ottinger was trying to get out of Howard. Your last sentence is the main thing. EVERYTHING IS WRITTEN IN BLACK AND WHITE. Everyones rules have grey areas in them. I know that you can't address everything but you can get fairly close. To answer your first question. There is nothing in the rules that states it all has to be of the same brand. As long as it has buggy based drivetrain and components then it will be legal. I personnally don't have a problem with it. I saw a guy at the Latemodel nats last year have a car that was a beautiful work of art. It had various different brands of components on it but it had everything buggy based. If looks would have won the race this thing would have lapped the field 10 times or more. The car made the A but it didn't win. If a person wants to spend that kind of money on his car then I can't tell him how to spend his hard earned money as long as he stays within the rules. If the rules were not written clearly enough for everyone to understand and they show up with that car I would have to let him run it because I did not pay enough attention to the rules when they were written.

Now I am not going to come on here and say we need to run this and we need to run that. I am just saying that if we come to your area and race we need to follow your rules. The same for you guys if you come over here. I don't have a problem with rules we really do need them to give structure to an excellent class that has grown tremendously in the last few years. Just be clear on what you can and can't do so we know what we are going to have to do before we get there.

[93TA]

Doug G. "This also leads me to the next question, what happens when the first manufacturer of a car comes out with a bad to the bone, 1/8 dominator car so to say and it totally obsoletes every other car on the market right now since there are no real rules regarding suspension locations, drive train, shocks? Will it be legal in the NSCS? Will it be legal in the FDOS? Will it be legal in the ONS?"

With Losi recent releases such as the "smart diff", the Losi version of the one-way and a new spec tire, it seems that Losi may be looking to develop the L8ate in to the "1/8 Dominator". They have spent a lot of money and time to develop the car (not to mention the other dirt oval support they have given the other classes) if their car was that car, would it be legal in the NSCS, FDOS or the ONS...............I hope so.

Just like the DODC rules they are there, you may choose to use them or not, they are a good standardization of rules for the 1/10 cars.

chad

to me it doesn't matter how good or bad a new car is, if it's made to fit fdos rules, it's legal.

[04Xterra]

What ever happens, don't let this class die!! I finally got one of these bad boys and I want to put it to some use.

I will run whatever rule package a track decides on, just as long as I can race.

[Dlan44]

The comment about the spec tires worked better before the allowing of the new tires/inserts. There have been several that have said it worked to prevent the need for an engine rule. Then why not just go back to one set of tires. Ofna makes the premount tire in spoked and dish wheel. Same tire and insert. Having a tire rule is cheaper to get people to switch to then an engine rule is. Things like tires and bodies are simpler things to control then engines.

EXACTLY!!!! If you are going to have a "SPEC TIRE" rule, have "A" spec tire. If you are going to allow multiple tire/insert combinations.......just go ahead and say "any street tread". If not.....just let the track set the tire rule.

The problem with this is that everyone 'still' doesn't have the same motor. Some are always better than others. If the racing gets serious, this can get WAY more expensive than running open engine rules. Some guys would be willing to buy a pile of engines just to find the good ones. Nitro engines are just like that. Plus, not wanting to buy a 'different' engine is commonly given as a reason for not racing at a given track, etc.

No one commented on limiting fuel capacity, but it seems silly to reinvent the wheel. Controlling the fuel in the car DIRECTLY controls the power you can use.....the need for 'spec' engines would go right out the window and you wouldn't force anyone to buy a 'specific' engine to race a given class.


Sound logic........but won't work because many of the cars COME WITH 140-150cc. tanks. Unlike pure buggies with their 125cc. IFMAR tanks. Besides some of the cheap .28 RTR engines burn more fuel than a $800 Nova Rossi

Wow, finally something the NSCS does do correctly. ;)

Until representatives of the different groups attend races at each group's tracks there really is no way for people to comprehend whats going on at each location. I think the surfaces are simply way different as well as what each group is trying to achieve from their racing. Some guys just want to go as fast as possible no matter what it costs or what upgrades it takes to do it. There are other guys that like the more realistic look of how the cars drive on loose dirt and the simpleness of a basic buggy.

How does the spec engine deal work out if you can put all the power down? In my eyes this would mean guys are going to push them to the limit with nitro percentages and temps to get more speed and power than the next guy killing them in one race day


Is a compromise possible, I would hope so but before anything could be settled reps from all the regions should attend races at all of the tracks be it in Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Florida, Tennessee, North Carolina because it would not be fair to make rules without the proper knowledge as to why racers are doing particular things in each of these areas. Without the racers support you would have nothing. . :rolleyes: Good luck to all.

The spec engine works very well. Just look at the Open Whee. It also works for C&S. When you limit the horsepower via. a spec engine then you can make the chassis more stable for the new guys and they will stick around longer.
As for cherry picking, blueprinting, or outright cheating an engine......the only cure is a claimer. That way you keep the cost and horsepower down and open up more engine options........including the RTR's. The only problem is that claimers is a tough sell. Properly implemented, and no one trying to cheat.......it works very well.

I have been to most of the regions (if not all) and tracks you have mentioned. I have seen the differences, and heard the reasins. Those comments generated the set of rules I posted. Why weren't they more successful............Racers still think their way is best and will refuse to buy a set of tires or piece of lexan to race somewhere else or in someone elses series because THEIR WAY IS BETTER. Come Open wheel time they will do it for their Sprints and latemodels. If Rob said they all had to be PINK........paint prices would tripple.
All it takes is a set of rules with a little flexability and someone with some clout to say.....HERE THEY ARE now COME GITCHA SOME !

Doug G. "This also leads me to the next question, what happens when the first manufacturer of a car comes out with a bad to the bone, 1/8 dominator car so to say and it totally obsoletes every other car on the market right now since there are no real rules regarding suspension locations, drive train, shocks? Will it be legal in the NSCS? Will it be legal in the FDOS? Will it be legal in the ONS?"

With Losi recent releases such as the "smart diff", the Losi version of the one-way and a new spec tire, it seems that Losi may be looking to develop the L8ate in to the "1/8 Dominator". They have spent a lot of money and time to develop the car (not to mention the other dirt oval support they have given the other classes) if their car was that car, would it be legal in the NSCS, FDOS or the ONS...............I hope so.

Just like the DODC rules they are there, you may choose to use them or not, they are a good standardization of rules for the 1/10 cars.

chad

There is always going to be innovations.
Someone mentioned offset chassis..............Isn't the Losi and Ofna DO cars offset???
Why should a guy have to go buy a new car when he can swap around a few parts?

I keep hearing comments about "STOCK DIFFS". That is BS. How many guys have their diff locked. If it is locked I don't care how you do it it is no longer a diff and therefore IS NOT STOCK!
Add to that the fact that every Ofna car owner has installed hardened diff gears..........NOT STOCK EITHER!

Guys.......if there is EVER going to be rules for this class someone is going to have to give a little............................COMPROMISE!

[loopedout]

Cant lock a diff in NSCS, and Ive been running the same stock diff gears for three years in my Ofna. The DO Pro is offset a bit, the losi is the same as the buggy, no offset in the chassis or engine. It is a 2.0 buggy with different shock towers and body mounts from what I can tell on mine. Claimer rules on engines are fantastic better than limiting choices, put a 200 claimer on them. I wouldnt mind one bit just having ONE spec tire whether it be losi or ofna for rubber, I know nothing about foam. I see Losi is very involved and have put out an affordable race car with great support. Im not seeing that with any other company right now, one other company released a car but I fear they have forgotten the model number already. More diversity in the field would be welcome IMO but another company is going to have to step up a little with a DO car.

[sps3172]

It would be nice if everyone could get thier cars started at the same time. Most of the time there is always one guy and we all know that guy, he cant ever get his car started on time, so we idle around the track until he can make the show. Then we all have to come back to the pit to get refueled. Then some ones car is loaded up and stalls, and here we go again. I dont think fuel limit is the way to go. IMO

Donnie....good point, for sure. First thing I would say to this is if there's 'always that one guy'.....I guess he's going to miss the start of his heat :).

Secondly, I think as people gain experience, their tuning skills will improve. It won't be such a feat to have a car that actually starts and runs reliably. I'm not sure I'd let inexperience deture the rule making process. Think how well everyone does with IFMAR type starts when they first try. Most people don't 'get it' for quite a while. Now days, it's second nature for most racers.

Sound logic........but won't work because many of the cars COME WITH 140-150cc. tanks. Unlike pure buggies with their 125cc. IFMAR tanks. Besides some of the cheap .28 RTR engines burn more fuel than a $800 Nova Rossi

If a given engine is tuned properly, AND burns more fuel than an $800 Nova Rossi, then physics suggest it must be making MORE POWER than the expensive mill. The RTR engines may 'waste' more fuel due to a poor setup, but I seriously doubt that they 'need' more fuel when they're tuned and setup well.

It's actually good that most cars have tanks that are too big....it's easy to reduce fuel capacity....you simply drop somthing into the tank (nylon bolt, etc.).

[Dlan44]

If a given engine is tuned properly, AND burns more fuel than an $800 Nova Rossi, then physics suggest it must be making MORE POWER than the expensive mill. The RTR engines may 'waste' more fuel due to a poor setup, but I seriously doubt that they 'need' more fuel when they're tuned and setup well.

It's actually good that most cars have tanks that are too big....it's easy to reduce fuel capacity....you simply drop somthing into the tank (nylon bolt, etc.).

It is not physics........just Cubic inches vs. flow and efficiency. The machine work in the Nova Rossi is much better, components are lighter and stronger, znd it is less displacement than your .28 RTR. Modify the RTR and it could be equally or more powerful.......almost as expensive.......more torque would equal harder to hook up and break more parts...............AND STILL BURN MORE FUEL.

There are a few out there that do a pretty good job, but they need the tank. Why lean on it to make 4min. with a smaller tank and shorten the life of the engine.
If it were a 1/10 scale I would definitely agree with you because MOST came with 75cc. tanks. The manufacturers put in what thwy thought the cars and engines needed.

One other thing, with a 1-2 minute warm up you are looking at 5-6min run time. Some guys (especially new ones) don't have a pit man to top them off.

[plipitkc]

Guys,

I like this calm conversation regarding rules packages, etc.

I've been out of here a while and this is more of a summary I picked up in reading the thread.

The areas we need to be concerned are:

1. Engine displacement - make it the same for one class or determine a "spec" engine

2. Fuel tank size - regulate it to equalize the affect of engine size differences.

3. Go to a "spec" tire rule. Again to equalize things and limit Hp requirements.

4. Keep the buggy based line in but allow innovation and experimentation to continue.

This sounds great but I would like to toss out another thing to think about that may help

5. Determine a "spec" fuel or specific Nitro percentage allowable. An example would be allow only a 20% nitro content fuel in the class or get with one of the fuel blenders about sponsoring the class and that fuel with the given nitro content be the only legal fuel. It is easy to regulate and check with a hydrometer for specific gravity.

Again, this would help equalize the horsepower field and help keep the operating cost down, therefore attracting more racers to this class.

Someone brought up what looked like the old OKC or PRO rules with a claimer clause. It will work but why buy an illegal car if you plan to race it in that class.

Thanks from Ontario CA, at least this week

Phil

[Oldschool]

I have been making folded bodies for 1/8LM since well before the first molded bodies were availeable. I cannot understand the paranoia over folded bodies. Most, if not all arguments that I have heard used to condemn them are bogus! Now that there are several molded bodies to choose from there should be LESS insistance on a molded body. The aero affect on these cars is not that great that some simple dimensions wouldn't keep the playing field level and still allow folded bodies IMO.

[tmr22]

I have been making folded bodies for 1/8LM since well before the first molded bodies were availeable. I cannot understand the paranoia over folded bodies. Most, if not all arguments that I have heard used to condemn them are bogus! Now that there are several molded bodies to choose from there should be LESS insistance on a molded body. The aero affect on these cars is not that great that some simple dimensions wouldn't keep the playing field level and still allow folded bodies IMO.

Don't understand the paranoia? Let me show you a body that I made back in 2002 before 8 scale latemodel racing got big. This is a prime example of why a folded body should not be allowed. Other than the side dam this body was made well inside all of the dimentions of the rules. The reason I know this is because I still have all of the templates for it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/tmr22/DSCF0014.jpg

If I were to show up somewhere with this body everyone would have a dam fit. There would not be a thing you could do about it because it will measure out within the rules. There is nothing in the rules that states I can't make a body like this.

[BrianD]

Don't understand the paranoia? Let me show you a body that I made back in 2002 before 8 scale latemodel racing got big. This is a prime example of why a folded body should not be allowed. Other than the side dam this body was made well inside all of the dimentions of the rules. The reason I know this is because I still have all of the templates for it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/tmr22/DSCF0014.jpg

If I were to show up somewhere with this body everyone would have a dam fit. There would not be a thing you could do about it because it will measure out within the rules. There is nothing in the rules that states I can't make a body like this.


Wow Tim, that body is beautiful. Nice work, that took a lot of time and forward thinking. Aside from looking trick it also proves your point very well.

[04Xterra]

I think everyone that has posted in this thread deserves a pat on the back for keeping this civil and positive.

It seems that there is going to have to be a foam tire class and a rubber tire class. I don't feel there needs to be a restriction on fuel tank size or engine displacement. Let the track surface dictate how much power can be put down.

I like the idea of further splitting the class into sportsman and pro. Everyone knows what class they belong in and if you are a cherrypicker you should be congratulated for being a douche bag.

Sportsman class would be buggy based with all major components in their intended/factory places.

Pro class would allow for modifications to the chassis and component layout. Buggy based suspension components. Max wheelbase and track width specifications would be helpful in this class.

Just some ideas I've had floating around in my head.

[Dlan44]

Guys,

I like this calm conversation regarding rules packages, etc.

I've been out of here a while and this is more of a summary I picked up in reading the thread.

The areas we need to be concerned are:

1. Engine displacement - make it the same for one class or determine a "spec" engine

2. Fuel tank size - regulate it to equalize the affect of engine size differences.

3. Go to a "spec" tire rule. Again to equalize things and limit Hp requirements.

4. Keep the buggy based line in but allow innovation and experimentation to continue.

This sounds great but I would like to toss out another thing to think about that may help

5. Determine a "spec" fuel or specific Nitro percentage allowable. An example would be allow only a 20% nitro content fuel in the class or get with one of the fuel blenders about sponsoring the class and that fuel with the given nitro content be the only legal fuel. It is easy to regulate and check with a hydrometer for specific gravity.

Again, this would help equalize the horsepower field and help keep the operating cost down, therefore attracting more racers to this class.

Someone brought up what looked like the old OKC or PRO rules with a claimer clause. It will work but why buy an illegal car if you plan to race it in that class.

Thanks from Ontario CA, at least this week

Phil


Good points, except for the tank size, but I have a question. Do you realize how many guys and how long it would take for tech to stay on top of this????

Rules can be good providing they can be enforced easily. Not every facility has a tech crew like Rob does at the Open Wheel. It usually ends being 1-2 guys spot teching after every heet with some scales and a couple of gauges. the KISS method works best for tech at most events.

The claimer was for engines only. It was a deterrant for guys with deep pockets spending money on engines. The way it was set up kept someone from cherry picking as well. you could only claim an engine finishing ahead of you IN YOUR HEAT. It worked too. No one got stoopid with their money and no engine was claimed.
I know someone is going to say "wif spec tars you dont need spensive motors", and you don't......but someone will and leave the perception that you do need big horsepower. This scares away some new racers and gives the option of having more power than they can handle to others.

[donnie victor]

Rob Cutman hit it with the differences in 8th scalers. Sportsman and Hobbiest. There will have to be a Hobby class and Sportsman class with as few limits as possible. :thumbsup: The first rule for the Hobby class will be that they all have to look like Taxi's... JK LOL.

[Oldschool]

I maintain that the shape can be controlled by dimensions. By the way, what if I made a molded body that was identical to the one you show, where would it be illegal under current rules? Most of them just say any molded body. That's my point. You must then either make a list of approved, molded bodies, or put dimensions in your rules. As long as the folded bodies comply with the same rules as the molded bodies they should be allowed.IMO

[04Xterra]

Rob Cutman hit it with the differences in 8th scalers. Sportsman and Hobbiest. There will have to be a Hobby class and Sportsman class with as few limits as possible. :thumbsup:

That's basically what I just typed but I used more words. :p

[sps3172]

Do you realize how many guys and how long it would take for tech to stay on top of this????

Rules can be good providing they can be enforced easily. Not every facility has a tech crew like Rob does at the Open Wheel. It usually ends being 1-2 guys spot teching after every heet with some scales and a couple of gauges. the KISS method works best for tech at most events.



So here's the deal as I see it....

As an example, we have an extensive list of dimensions for a 'legal' EDM body in the DODC. Does EVERY car in EVERY heat at EVERY club track around the country get measured with a ruler EVERY time it shows up to race? Hell no. At the club level, the rules really only seem to matter for the contenders. If someone is off the pace, does it really matter if they're 'cheating'? If someone's fast, you pay attention to their equipment.

At larger races, where there are larger numbers of contenders, there's typically the staff on hand to support more complicated tech requirements.

I agree that you want to keep tech as simple as possible...that's a great thing to keep in mind. Just remember that you don't typically subject a car to full scrutinization at a 'club level' race.

[Dlan44]

That's basically what I just typed but I used more words. :p


Yes, but they are all RACERS and more racers means bigger car counts and happy hobby shop and track owners.
Get enough of them and you might even get mor Manufacturers involved.

DON"T FORGET THIS GUYS.....................FOR A MANUFACTURER TO INVEST IN OUR SEGMENT OF THE HOBBY.....HE LIKES TO SEE S REASONABLY FIRM SET OF RULES TO DEVELOPE A CAR TO....................!

[Dlan44]

So here's the deal as I see it....

As an example, we have an extensive list of dimensions for a 'legal' EDM body in the DODC. Does EVERY car in EVERY heat at EVERY club track around the country get measured with a ruler EVERY time it shows up to race? Hell no. At the club level, the rules really only seem to matter for the contenders. If someone is off the pace, does it really matter if they're 'cheating'? If someone's fast, you pay attention to their equipment.

At larger races, where there are larger numbers of contenders, there's typically the staff on hand to support more complicated tech requirements.

I agree that you want to keep tech as simple as possible...that's a great thing to keep in mind. Just remember that you don't typically subject a car to full scrutinization at a 'club level' race.


These rules are not intended to be "club level" They are a NATIONAL set of rules for hopefully a NATIONAL POINTS SERIES. At the club level they are only a guideline.

Even at some larger events the tech crew is stressed to the max. Remember these guys are usually volunteers. manpower usually results in Spot tech after the qualifiers start and a more detailed tech in the A main.

[sps3172]

DON"T FORGET THIS GUYS.....................FOR A MANUFACTURER TO INVEST IN OUR SEGMENT OF THE HOBBY.....HE LIKES TO SEE S REASONABLY FIRM SET OF RULES TO DEVELOPE A CAR TO....................!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

This is the MOST POWERFUL thing that anyone has said on the topic so far. I think it even applies to more than just manufacturers....

I bet there are more than a few racers watching this class with interest.....but they hesitate to get involved because there's just no telling what car would be legal to run at what track at what point.

Also, I've seen it mentioned that if a manufacturer were to develop a car for this class, and it was an obvious advantage, the rules would be changed the following year to outlaw that car. If you were an RC manufacturer, how much of your resources would you want to devote to developing a car that would be outlawed if you did too good of a job?

[donnie victor]

If it is affordable and fast, the converting over will not offend most racers. So they probably wont be outlawed....:thumbsup:

[JW8]

The topic of getting Manufactures involved is always an interesting one when it comes to DO and us as racers. I have seen many posts about how certain larger manufactures are "influencing" the rules and direction of this class. On the other hand racers want more involvement from them. There are racers that feel that the bigger companies influence and manipulate to get their way with rules to favor their equipment. Then racers are frustrated because this segment of the RC world has little support. Rules that allow companies to "box" together products that they all ready produce with some simple new parts allows them to get into DO with less investment. There are very few ground up dirt oval cars around....we rely on GT tranny, ntc3 clutch bells, truck suspension....ect. Losi for example was able to take something that is very popular in off road, make some changes like towers and body mounts, produce a body and import a GRP tire to put together a great 1/8 LM. The rules that currently are out attracted Losi to getting involved in the class. Ofna has been able to fill a role by doing the same. Rules of this class would have to keep other larger companies in mind if we look to attract more to the DO world I would think. If that is a goal of DO to attract these larger companies to get involved. I am not so sure all are interested in that.

Jeff

[Dlan44]

The topic of getting Manufactures involved is always an interesting one when it comes to DO and us as racers. I have seen many posts about how certain larger manufactures are "influencing" the rules and direction of this class. On the other hand racers want more involvement from them. There are racers that feel that the bigger companies influence and manipulate to get their way with rules to favor their equipment. Then racers are frustrated because this segment of the RC world has little support. Rules that allow companies to "box" together products that they all ready produce with some simple new parts allows them to get into DO with less investment. There are very few ground up dirt oval cars around....we rely on GT tranny, ntc3 clutch bells, truck suspension....ect. Losi for example was able to take something that is very popular in off road, make some changes like towers and body mounts, produce a body and import a GRP tire to put together a great 1/8 LM. The rules that currently are out attracted Losi to getting involved in the class. Ofna has been able to fill a role by doing the same. Rules of this class would have to keep other larger companies in mind if we look to attract more to the DO world I would think. If that is a goal of DO to attract these larger companies to get involved. I am not so sure all are interested in that.

Jeff


Jeff........with all due respect, for every one like you that can scratch build a sprint car out of a coathanger, epoxy and cardboard, there are 100 guys that are still ttying to learn from their hobby shops how to tune an engine or which way to turn that thing on top of the shock spring.

If it wasn't for the manufacturers (LARGE and SMALL) spending millions of dollars on engineering and molds for nylon and composite parts most of us would be racing Hot Wheels on our dining room tables slobbering as we try to make engine noises.

On the other side of the coin, getting manufacturers to support our hobby doesn't mean let them make the rules to gain an unfair advantage. That would be a short term gain with decreasing participation by racers and lost sales in the long run.
Wheather it is a shock tower, engine, radio, diff, or complete car. If someone builds a good piece......it will sell. They just have to know that that piece fits the rules and won't be outlawed at the drop of a hat.

When it comes to rules, one person can't do it. You can't include or exclude anything that may favor any one company...........and that is VERY HARD TO DO.

Just an example that is a hot potatoe.
Please don't argue over this again because it is a dead horse.
Tires.......NSCS did what they thought was right and it worked. Spec Tires. Along came Losi with two compounds that were made legal. No Problem. People ran belted Ofna's that weren't legal to the letter of the rules but were excepted. Multiple inserts were used and I am OK with that. Even though on a given track there may have been no clear best performer, Guys spent money on the different combinations. Kyosho has a street tire similar to the Losi.......but they are not legal. So does ProLine, and Ofna has another street tread that is not legal.
A rule is a rule and this is a double edge sword that on one side could appear to be favoring a couple of manufacturers, but on the other hand save ourselves from buying hundreds of dollars in tires we really don't need. That is why I am for letting the track, promoter or series set the tire rule.......along with Aero rules (side dams). Then all we have to agree on is engines/bodies.

PLEASE GUYS.......NO TIRE ARGUEMENTS !

I learned that sometimes the tracks and local racers really do know the tires for their track better than ANY rule makers. I was one of the BIGGEST bitchers over the Monee tires.........till I built and ran some. They worked GREAT........and I still have some except for two Nathan stripped out. Dan had the rest and he sold them. They are still probably being run.

The brainstorming here is a good thing.......I went into it with an open mind......learned a few things in the process.
Now i got to get out some cardboard and epoxy and patch up a very old Buggy turning it into a Limited L8m that Maybe I can run at C&S then replace the tires and remove the side dam and run at Wild Bills when I get back in town.

[JW8]

I think you must have mistaken my post as an anti big company one....on the opposite I actually believe that for DO to keep taking steps forward companies must get involved. I actually cannot build anything. Jeff Harper built the awesome sprinter that I race. I waited until Losi came out with something complete for the form of racing I do to get a LM. I do not like to fabricate anything...lol My stance is that many racers want growth but they want little structure and then want major manufacture support without feeling like they are running the show. That is one heck of a balancing act. I think the companies that produce products do so because they believe they will sell. Racing is such a small part of the total RC sales that most major companies will not look to control such a small segment like DO. The ones that have gotten in have not put out products that dictated rules but instead were put out because those were the rules or the current meaning of the rules. For example my understanding of how the NSCS (which started life as a sprint car org.) adopted the OFNA spec tire idea was from the 1/8 LMs being run at Comp RC on OKC. The adoption of the rules were not because OFNA was involved instead it allowed those racers at that track to race on the tour. The class grew and since has gotten as popular as the sprints in our area. The tire is not a purpose built item and I would guess is not used in many segments of rc racing....it really is a crappy little tire....lol. Losi comes out with an eight buggy with bumpers, body and springs. Well it needed something to put on the car. Not going to be an ofna tire. So the cars came with a GRP on road tire. No politics, leverage or attempt to control. I am guessing that many of the L8's sold at Hobbytown's and ect. are bash cars and never make it to the track. The NSCS allowed the tires to let people who bought the car run what came in their new kit and because they were found to have not major advantage over the OFNA tire. Now that is the situation in my racing area. Maybe mgf. have more influence in the East but not seeing that as an issue here.

[Doug Gaut]

Mike Ottinger and I had a nice LONG talk this morning about rules and feel very similar about 90% of the subjects we discussed.

First and foremost we are racers but with that said racers can be their own worst enemies. (quote from a guy in Indiana) :thumbsup: They will push the rules in order to gain that elusive tenth of a second on the next guy and there is nothing wrong with that unless it costs you racers in the long run. In the end the MAIN GOAL should be for the rules to better the racing and gain more new poeple as well as keep the current ones.

There needs to be a very detailed set of rules made that establishes all the parameters regarding suspension locations, drivetrain-modifications if any, what can and cannot be offset and by how much, overall weight, bodies, and the list goes on. First thing guys are going to say, we dont need a big buttload of rules. Well keep thinking that till you see the first Dominator built and every car on the market is obsoleted. How long do you think the class will exist?? Racing is an ever evolving thing but if you look back, when the Dominator came out you either ran one or jumped to a different class. Now current day, look at sedans. This was a HUGE segment of the r/c industry for the past 10-12 years but when the cars evolved from a simple Yokomo MR4TC, Associated TC3, Losi XXXS to the now Corally PHI, Associated TC5, Losi JRXS TypeR, Xray 2010-2 ;) the class has taken a nose dive and is about dead nationwide. The cars are way over priced as well as so complicated the setup pages look like something a mechanical engineer came up with. This class "could" evolve the same way and it will die a quick death in my opinion if left unchecked or allowed to be open game.

Regarding Losi coming out with some new specialized car more than the L8ight is, no that is not in the works that I know of. When you have bean counters running businesses like Losi, Associated, Mugen and Ofna the new car will not come from these places. It will come from a small company that is not worried about selling XXX amount of cars in a year to recover their expenses within a short time frame. I dont mean this in the wrong way as poeple need to make money in order to stay in business, I am trying to point out that we are such a small segment of the r/c industry that the bigger companies are not going invest a hundred thousand dollars required to tool up, design new molds and make a special built car without a guarantee that it will sell say 1500 cars in a year, its just economics. We do not have that big of a market so I dont blame them. We are lucky they have even given us the time of day if you consider how many offroad buggies they sell in a given year.

Speaking for myself and thinking about how to get the largest number of racers and keep them racing I would like to see a comprehensive set of rules that establish stock (MFG) locations for the gearboxes, drivetrain and suspension mounts/arms. This allows all the buggies on the market new or even older ones like the MBX5, Turmoil, Ravager (which are all competitive here in the midwest) to compete knowing that even though the racers that own these do not have the newest car they will still be in the hunt. The only modifications that could be done would be in the shock and shock tower department in order for shorter shocks and stiffer springs to be utilized. Graphite chassis plates?? I am not sure about that but like Mike pointed out this morning, if the suspension and drivetrain are in the original locations or within the allowed guidelines the only advantage would be weight but if you have a set weight of 8.5lbs then there is no real advantage there either except for where you put the weight which could be really big. which is why i am on the fence about them. Mike and I differ a little on offsetting the engine and center diff and I have to respect his thoughts. For me I would rather see the rules keep the stock BUGGY locations in order to keep the cars out now still competitive. If you allow 5/8-1" offset or more then you are requiring an entire new chassis plate be built for all the older cars and again, you can and probably will lose racers in the long run so if the new cars are built with these rules in mind the older cars will not be obsolete overnight.

These are simply ideas and thoughts of my own and what I think would keep current racers as well as gain more new racers. How many times have you been to a race and you get the prospective racer looking your car over and asking questions about how much and what all would they have to buy from a base kit to have what you are racing? Its happened to all of us. Here are two examples to think about.

Example #1: You tell them the price of the kit, motor, radio, starter box, etc. Then they ask you what all you have done to "your" car so you tell them all they would need is a different clutch bell, sway bar set, optional springs and thats it. Guy thinks he might do it if thats all it takes.

Example #2: You tell them the same answer as example #1 BUT you tell them in order to have the car "you" are racing they will have to junk a good portion of the stock kit and buy optional chassis plates, shock towers, shocks, fuel tank, one-ways and that is "IF" they can find somebody that will do it. Guy looks at you with this deer in the headlight look and walks off.

Now this is worst case scenerio but still it has happened in the sprint class, I have seen it.

If the new guy can go to the local hobby shop, buy what he needs for a car and worst case (say an Ofna Ravager, Xray 808) buy a different shock tower from a specialized company like Dynotech, IDRC, Ottinger and some Revo or a second pair of front shocks; they are more apt to do this than to take and source one-off parts and spend a fortune (say $1500) on a special built car. Doesnt it make more sense that new racers be able to buy what the Tim McNutt's, Mike Ottingers, Jeff Harpers, Lee Morrisons of racing is running in order to get setup and parts support? Plus it just makes more sense to me if guys can start out in a sportsman class and all they need to do is get wheel time in order to move up to the experienced class. Nothing else to buy, just wheel time.

Okay, thats my rant for the evening. LOL

[Dlan44]

Sorry I misunderstood............two dimensional conversations can be confusing. If you look at the thread overall.....................we are mostly on the same page. None of the points of contention can't be worked around or compromised.

Here is my recommendation...................

NSCS, Midwest, Florida, NC (open) and Tennessee cars are "Super Lates" just with different tire and Aero based on the series, or Promoters

Limited Lates are just that with the C&S, or similar engine rule with or without the option of a claimer on the engine. Tires and Aero once again being the option of the series or promoter.

ALL OF THE CARS RUN THE SAME DIMENSIONS, WEIGHT, WHEEL SIZE and a ALUMINUM CHASSIS BASE PLATE WITH A BUGGY SHAFT DRIVELINE

I know someone is going to question the NSCS car being grouprd woth the Super Lates because they require gear diffs. So What! If you run there......run a gear diff. If you choose not to run with them because of the diff rule.......they just lose an entry or two. They can cover that with their own series supplmental regulation. Any other place NSCS guys run they are legal, and can put the torsen or one way in if they want.

BOTTOM LINE................WE REALLY ARE RUNNING THE SAME CARS !

[Dlan44]

Doug............you are overthinking !

The rules I posted from 2007 covered MOST of your concerns.

REMEMBER...............NATIONAL RULES!

If you want a sportsman class at your track.....GO FOR IT!

If rookie drivers at major events becomes an issue........SEED THE QUALIFIERS AND RESORT AFTER TWO.

Don't overthink!

If a Losi or Ofna has an in line driveline out of the box and a guy wants to or can straiten out his Ravager or Duratrax..........let him. It is really no big deal as long as you run aluminum OEM bottom plates and require stock suspension mounting points.

You have to start somewhere............address the "SUPER CARS" later.

[Doug Gaut]

Can't say I have ever been accused of that before. :ha:

All I have to say, keep the big picture in mind and go for it. Its up to the racers and tracks to support it no matter how big of a Gorilla you find. ;)

[Dlan44]

Can't say I have ever been accused of that before. :ha:

All I have to say, keep the big picture in mind and go for it. Its up to the racers and tracks to support it no matter how big of a Gorilla you find. ;)

No truer words were ever spoken...........

Unfortunately no matter how big the Gorilla is, a small group of uncooperative racers that wants everything their way can delay if not defeat progress.

Except for a very few running super trick double throw down custom made offset chassis........WE ARE STILL BASICALLY RUNNING THE SAME CARS.

Once upon a time we had box stock 1/18 sliders. One track I know drew nearly 20 every week. They allowed different tires and that was all. Along came brushless LiPo's and the guys that were just having fun went away. Now one track gets 6-8 cars and the other zero. Not to long ago people were begging for Sliders. Now they are for sale all over at 25cents on the dollar.
We must all be insane.

Insanity is when you do the same things over and over and expect different results.............WHEN WILL WE LEARN ?

[loopedout]

"Once upon a time we had box stock 1/18 sliders. One track I know drew nearly 20 every week. They allowed different tires and that was all. Along came brushless LiPo's and the guys that were just having fun went away. Now one track gets 6-8 cars and the other zero. Not to long ago people were begging for Sliders. Now they are for sale all over at 25cents on the dollar.
We must all be insane."


This must have happened at every track, Doug and I were talking about this very point last weekend. It would be truly sad if 1/8 lates were to ever follow that trend.

[plipitkc]

So who is going to post the first draft for all to see? By the way, what I listed was only areas of concern that I saw not rules to live by. Those points were to help level the field and did not need to have all or any used.

I like it when we all can talk without pissing each other off.

Phil

[hitman1965]

I will put them together and do the writing. I don't mind doing that. I will put it to paper so the group can hack at them and then Rob to adopt them to be DODC rules.


So if you guys want I will collect all that I can find of what was covered in this thread and others and make something of it.

I need at least a few of the big players to say yes.

Shawn Hittle
aka Hitman

[RichardsonRacng]

Around 17 different racers have made up the 76 posts on this thread, and now it's ready for national rules?

You can't limit motor choices, if you want to keep cost down then enforce a claimer rule. Matter of fact, a claimer rule for the whole package would keep the playing field level, if that's what your trying to do, then you could close the thread???? I dont honestly believe its a cure all.

bTW- what are your reasonings for wanting a national set of rules for this class? What will be the benefeit? I would like to see everyone take a step back for a moment, post the pros and cons, hurdles already surpassed and ones they see in the future. Then run ahead with the national rules with more overall persective...you must identify the common goals before being able to settle on common rules, if you want to have a chance of making of work. Doesn't matter how good it looks on paper if you can't get the "majority" of the racers to buy in on it! You have to know where your going before you can decide how to get there.

[donnie victor]

Ronnie I believe it was mentioned that if we have a National set of Rules that would attract the manufacturers. With out the rules we are on our own. Except for Ofna cars and Losi 8s. The more the merrier I say. We need support and parts for these cars. Some racers dont like change, they need to get their head out of the sand. I say draw up a draft Hitman and then we will pick it apart and go from there.:thumbsup: I agree with Tim claimers suck. How track owners think that will promote anything is beyond me...

[tmr22]

Claimer rules are for people that can't keep up with intelligence and ability. If you can't beat them then claim them. The claimer rule is the worst thing anyone could have ever come up with. I have seen this happen many times. Say for instance I go and buy a $150 motor and mod it myself, I win and Joe Blow buys my motor for $300 then I will give you the motor take your money and get me another $150 motor and pocket my other $150.

You put a claimer rule on the cars then it would be cheaper to just buy a bullet and a gun and shoot yourself because you will run off all of your racers and deter the new ones wanting to get into it.

If what is working in your area then by all means stay with it. If you want a set of guidelines to go by then take what each area has, group it all together into one complete book, and then let the area leaders of the region or series determine what stays and what goes. It will be alot easier to have about 4 or 5 people working on this instead of 30-50 racers coming on here and doing these rules to benefit them.

Hoover - NSCS
Ottinger - DLMRA
Rob Cutman - DODC
Whoever is over the Sooner Series
And probably one more from the eastern area to make an even 5 for voting purposes. With this you will have 2 people from the MidWest and 2 from the East Coast with the head of the DODC making the final decision. Each person can represent what area he races in and can be the spokes person for their region. They will know what their racers want , and what will work for their area.

I really don't think we need a National set of rules but I do think we could use a good set of guidelines for structure before it gets out of hand. Look at the 1/10 scale stuff. That deal has got a great set of guidelines and has a very good structure. That is why it is working well.

This is just a thought that I had. I don't know if this will make it any easier but it is just an idea.

[Dano628]

I think that you need a national set of rules period that being said individual tracks or series always have the option of having the final say for there track or series I think any set of national rules are really only guidelines to the local clubs or tracks anyway for example if the national rules said you had to run losi dlm tires whats to stop my local track from saying at their track you can run foams at a local or club race .Eventually there will be a national championship for this class and you need a set of national rules that being said local tracks and series need only use them as guidelines . If you cant get together and hammer out a set of rules for one class then there will have to be two sets limited and unlimited . I like the idea of each section of the country having a representative to express their particular regions needs and view points. just my opinion Im just your average club level L8model driver what do I know

[Oldschool]

I don't beleive that a majority of 1/8LM drivers even visit this site, let alone, wish for a set of national rules! I also think that such a set of rules would only benefit those willing to travel to a national event. That has been covered, so far, with announcing the rules and everyone builds a car for that specific event. I think it has nothing to do with drawing manufacturers into DO. The rules will all change anyway when some one builds and offers a "Dominator". Until then lets keep the rules loose, the cars fast, and have fun!

[hitman1965]

Removed
Thanks

Shawn

[hitman1965]

Removed rules.

[mikey98]

:thumbsup:,:checkeredflag:

Mike

[plipitkc]

Mike

Everything looks good so far. One addition might be to add to the SPEC tire list is PRO LINE Road Rages.

Later

Phil

[plipitkc]

One that does need to be decided is a single motor for the limited / sportsman class.

I would like to propose the following three choices.

OS .21 VG
NR .21 001 3 port standard
RB Concepts S3 L2G ( I think)

Thanks

Phil

[donnie victor]

Hitman with all the different side dam lengths. Most of them over 14 inches, how did you end up with just 10 inches?

[speed4less]

You don't have to write them here they are.:D http://www.ottsspeedshop.com/familyrclassrules.html

[plipitkc]

Mike,

Thanks for changing to the charity auction.:thumbsup::checkeredflag:

If I understand your rules correctly, the restricted classes are your more experienced classes. Those cars are basically the same as our NSCS cars (by reading the rules) with the exception of track choice in tires and the box stock choice of three motors. Is this correct? In the past I had assumed your open class was the most experienced class.

Phil

[plipitkc]

If I understand Mikes rules correctly and knowing the NSCS rules. In place of specifying a 3 port engine for the single spec'd engine in this class, I would like to look at a single 5 port for the engine spec.

And here is my reasoning.

A 5 port engine is competitive in the outlaw style of racing in the NSCS and can with the correct carb restrictor be conparable to the performance of the 3 ports. At least that is my belief.

Thanks

Phil

[sps3172]

Mike,

Thanks for changing to the charity auction.:thumbsup::checkeredflag:

If I understand your rules correctly, the restricted classes are your more experienced classes. Those cars are basically the same as our NSCS cars (by reading the rules) with the exception of track choice in tires and the box stock choice of three motors. Is this correct? In the past I had assumed your open class was the most experienced class.

Phil

Mike O,

I still don't understand the logic of having the experienced guys running in a controlled or spec type class and letting the new guys have at it in 'open'.

Is the reason for this purely to accomodate the brand new guy with the RTR car and a .28 engine? Seems to me that individual tracks could offer a 'novice' type class if faced with this situation.

Not arguing....just asking.....

[speed4less]

Phil,
That is correct.
I allow chassis upgrades and OEM factory aftermarket diff's; example: Losi one-way and smart diff's. If a "major" manufacturer of a 1/8 buggy makes it, you can run it.
Here's the deal: does any 1/10 DO manufacturer make any of the transmissions for their cars? Not for the most part. There are a few, but they are $300 and almost no one uses them. No performance advantage. As far as I know, they are all associated-based drive train. (Chad, you are the exception.) How can you let Ofna run an offset car and no one else? We have some companies that are looking to get in on 1/8 LM. They will be small companies that will use the "buggy-base drive train", and the DLMRA rules are not going to close the door on them. Guys, this is going to happen no matter what we say on here. Let's make our rules based on the buggy base, which means stock length buggy arms, stock diff cases, and stock dog bone-type center drive. This is what a Ofna or Losi car is. When you try to limit the ability for a guy to upgrade his car to make it competetive with the New Car of the Week, it will cost a lot more in the big picture. I would have to buy a new car and parts every time I turn around. The DLMRA rules are intended to keep the racing close, cars driveable, cost down, classes are skill level based and let the same companies that we have grown to love into the 1/8 LM racing class. I don't know how you could make the rules any better. The DLMRA rules were written from listening to all you guys and putting them in place. We have a few tracks going by these and all I can do is hope one track at a time uses them. I'm not trying to push this on anyone. Tracks can use these as a base like we always have all the other organizations'. Here they are, use them if you want. http://www.ottsspeedshop.com/familyrclassrules.html

[hitman1965]

Mike,

After reviewing your rules again and reading Phils comments I was confused....

Where does a guy like yourself run?
How bout Donnie Victor? what class will he run in.....

Cause when I read your rules, which I like, I dont see where the outlaws run?

Just questions not trying to be a smart a$$.


Donnie,

To answer your question, I just pulled a number out of my hat, REALLY seriously, I didnt measure my cars or anything just threw something down.

Sorry.

Rules have been removed.

[tmr22]

Hitman,

We run in the 8 Latemodel Spec class. The sportsman class is for the people that are still getting a handle on the racing. After they can turn a certain amount of laps then they will move up to our class. If a person like Donnie wants to run then the class he would probably prefer would be the open class. It has the side dams and big motors but you will be running with the beginners with the RTR engines which are usually .26 and .28 motors. The class was developed for people that buy RTR cars with the big engines. They are required to run side dams so it will help them get a little bit of control with those engines.

[speed4less]

What class do the outlaws run in the DODC? They don't. We have an open class that anyone can run but if they do they will be running with true beginners. Could be a lot of wrecking. The outlaw class in general I think is a lot of wrecking. That is how it is where I race. It is true with foam tires and mod .28's the cars are balistic. That is fun but the races are very rough most of the time. That is one of the reasons for the three port .21 motor. I like close,tight,clean racing. The outlaw class in our area has come and gone already in 1/8 racing. When we have a big race we can manage 8 or 10 at the most. Last year at the Summer Nat's we had 12 to 14 open and 24 to 26 Limited with the three motors. After the Nat's it was three or four months before we had enough to run open 1/8LM again..

[hitman1965]

Ok Tim,

I wouldn't run the open class cause I wont put a side dam on my car. If that is a must I wont do. I don't like them and its deal breaker for me.

I think I could run in your sportsman class as I run the OS VG motor.

And as for Donnie based on what he ran last year he could only run in Open since he has big motors.




Mike,

The DODC outlaw it the unlimited late models. OR??? Maybe I am missing something here.....

Regardless I don't want this to be an argument. I just wanted to make sure I understood.

When I come down I plan to run Spec, but if i cant qualify I am good running Sportsman...

Thanks for both of the answers. I appreciate the feedback.

Shawn

[speed4less]

Cool, no fussing here. Just trying to help.
You are right they did. The only reason I have open in the DLMRA is because of the cheap RTR's. It is a good way to get cars in guys hands.

[sps3172]

Mike, I'm still confused....

From your rules:

"In the past if you showed up at the track with a RTR you would have to run in the
open class with the fast guys. The newbie does not stand a chance."

So, how is that still not the case with your rules? There are people (especially when considered on a national level) that want to and will push the envelope with a true 'open' car...won't you risk chasing off the new guys buy running them all together? Am I missing something?

Just want to confirm...I'm not arguing....just asking. Everyone has been really cool in this discussion and I'm hoping to keep it that way.

[speed4less]

Steve,
Going by the DLMRA rules fast guys run LM Spec. If you are a skilled driver with a LM open car will you want to run with the beginners? You will get one of the three spec motors and run with the fast guys. You may run open a few times till you can get a spec motor. The track owner must take care of his starter class. As a track owner you may have to move people into the right classes. Open is for the beginners or the guy who may show up that does not have the spec motor. The beginner will move to sportsman spec as soon as he see's he likes it and can afford to. The open class will have the biggest turn over due to people moving up or moving on. This is also a good place for offroad guys to try out oval if they like it in time they will move to Sportsman LM Spec or even LM Spec. I hope this helps.

[Oldschool]

Sorry, but that is backward thinking to me! The faster cars should be driven by the better drivers. To do otherwise is inviting dissaster and can't be good for the hobby.

[speed4less]

Oldschool,
You are somewhat right. The manufacturers make a cheap RTR that gets people to the track. That is good. When the new guy shows up at the track and has a car that he must run with the fast guys he does not have a chance. He will overdrive his car; he will cause a lot of wrecks and get frustrated and quit. If that same guy shows up at the track and is running with the same skill level guys he will have a chance to improve. This is what the RTR and off road crossovers have to face. We want the RTR to work for oval. These cars are designed for off road open courses and back yards we need to be able to make them work for us to.
On another note, what is funnier going mock 2 or close racing? I like close race able and affordable cars. The fast guys are running in the fast class, LM spec. The Late Model spec class turns several more laps in four min. than the beginners open class does. I know this sounds different and it is, just think about it. We must play the hand we are dealt. I hope this helps.

[sps3172]

Oldschool,
You are somewhat right. The manufacturers make a cheap RTR that gets people to the track. That is good. When the new guy shows up at the track and has a car that he must run with the fast guys he does not have a chance. He will overdrive his car; he will cause a lot of wrecks and get frustrated and quit. If that same guy shows up at the track and is running with the same skill level guys he will have a chance to improve. This is what the RTR and off road crossovers have to face. We want the RTR to work for oval. These cars are designed for off road open courses and back yards we need to be able to make them work for us to.
On another note, what is funnier going mock 2 or close racing? I like close race able and affordable cars. The fast guys are running in the fast class, LM spec. The Late Model spec class turns several more laps in four min. than the beginners open class does. I know this sounds different and it is, just think about it. We must play the hand we are dealt. I hope this helps.

Mike,

Is there any chance that it makes more sense to work the 'RTR new guy' into the sportsman class instead of open? If his RTR .28 even makes more power than a spec engine, I'm doubting it would be an advantage for a new driver.

I know the classes and rules you have work at your track. I'm just worried that when viewed on a national level, there might be a snafu or 2. As mentioned, not all 'fast guys' will want to run the spec class. When they congregate in 'open' at a given track, there's no where for the new guy to run.

Perhaps it makes more sense to have 1 'Spec' type class, 1 'Open' type class and a 'Novice' class for the new guys, instead of having 2 types of 'Spec' classes and 1 'Open' class where the novice gets beat up on by the experienced guys that want to run open. Trust me....it will happen at many tracks this way.

Again...just throwing out points for disucssion here. As I see it, everyone has their '09 rules published for given series and races. We're, in a best case scenario, talking about a potential 'national' rulebook for 2010. Seems like we have some time to discuss....

[tmr22]

One of the reasons that Mike done it this way is it would be very hard for a track owner to tell someone that has bought a RTR car that he can't run in the spec class until he spends another $150-$170 on another engine. That is going to be hard for a newbie to swallow especially in todays economy. Alot of the racers around here belive that a slower engine, (which in turn makes for a better handling car), will produce better racing. It will be closer, exciting, and more controllable races. I have seen this everywhere when you go to a track and people have ballistic cars that have more motor than the driver has the ability to control, and he is very inconsistent and all over the place. It produces crashes and less laps in a 4 minute run. Since we have gone to this rule the spec class has grown from 3-5 racers to 20-25 racers. The open class has gone from 20-25 racers to about 3-5. Part of it has to do with the economy, people not wanting to spend big money on horsepower, the other part of it is people want to see good close racing and that is what it has shown because of the ability to control the car better. Our racers will increase in size here soon because we have alot of converted pan-car racers moving over to 8 scales because they are seeing how much fun we are having and they want to join in on the fun. Every race I have seen online with open motors has been a crash fest. Some of the races I have seen has had only 3 or 4 cars in it. Why is this. What would you rather see, 3 cars being ballistic fast or 8-10 cars running close sometimes side by side and not out of control and all cars finishing on the same or close to the same lap.

[JW8]

I have seen several posts on the RTR guys. What constitutes a RTR in DO? Is a stock Losi L8 a RTR? Trying to understand some terminology to fully get people's points they are making.

I also have some of the same thoughts as sps3172. I know innovation and going fast have been the main points of many racers and I would think that would lead racers to want to run big power with side panels on the cars (Open Class). The debate between the NSCS style and the Open style racers has been mainly about those points. What I see is rules very close to each other with one group wanting a spec engine class and the other group wanting more stock type cars. Both groups use their rules for the same reasons. The spec engine rule is used because it slows the cars down and makes for closer racing. The stock car rule slows the cars down and makes for closer racing. I see both theories being legit and working. With those facts in mind I do not understand the amount of argument and fear at times about the others thoughts and rules. Both groups are doing the same thing just using different methods.

[sps3172]

Since we have gone to this rule the spec class has grown from 3-5 racers to 20-25 racers. The open class has gone from 20-25 racers to about 3-5.

Quick question....

Did the 'spec' class really grow or did you just 'move' the experienced racers away from the 'open' class by dumping the new guys in with them?

[tmr22]

Quick question....

Did the 'spec' class really grow or did you just 'move' the experienced racers away from the 'open' class by dumping the new guys in with them?

No it actually grew. Alot of them decided not to buy high horsepower motors. When they saw how good the 3 engine choices were and the cost of those engines they jumped on board.

[tmr22]

[quote=JW8;301567]I have seen several posts on the RTR guys. What constitutes a RTR in DO? Is a stock Losi L8 a RTR? Trying to understand some terminology to fully get people's points they are making.[quote]

A stock losi L8 is not a RTR. It does not come with an engine. We are talking about the cars that come with the engines. RTR means Ready to Run.

[Dlan44]

You don't have to write them here they are.:D http://www.ottsspeedshop.com/familyrclassrules.html

Good for a local track or local series.......BUT NOT NATIONALLY

Phil,
That is correct.
I allow chassis upgrades and OEM factory aftermarket diff's; example: Losi one-way and smart diff's. If a "major" manufacturer of a 1/8 buggy makes it, you can run it.
How can you let Ofna run an offset car and no one else? We have some companies that are looking to get in on 1/8 LM. They will be small companies that will use the "buggy-base drive train", and the DLMRA rules are not going to close the door on them. Guys, this is going to happen no matter what we say on here. Let's make our rules based on the buggy base, which means stock length buggy arms, stock diff cases, and stock dog bone-type center drive. This is what a Ofna or Losi car is. When you try to limit the ability for a guy to upgrade his car to make it competetive with the New Car of the Week, it will cost a lot more in the big picture. I would have to buy a new car and parts every time I turn around. The DLMRA rules are intended to keep the racing close, cars driveable, cost down, classes are skill level based and let the same companies that we have grown to love into the 1/8 LM racing class. I don't know how you could make the rules any better. The DLMRA rules were written from listening to all you guys and putting them in place. We have a few tracks going by these and all I can do is hope one track at a time uses them. I'm not trying to push this on anyone. Tracks can use these as a base like we always have all the other organizations'. Here they are, use them if you want. http://www.ottsspeedshop.com/familyrclassrules.html

Lemme see...........where do I start. I believe the Ofna offsets with wheel hubs. Both it and the Losi may strairen up the driveline some, but a full blown custom Billy Bob offset chassis with everything moved to the left and one guy wins and everyine has to have it........NO WAY JOSE !!!! Next week Rosco builds one a little bit quicker and lighter and now you HAVE TO buy another one. I don't see how this is cheaper. maybe for those with a machine shop and a pile of T6 or graphite. I hear the arguements now:

EVERYBODY UP HERE HAS ONE. BS....in your area maybe 15 or so......not across the country.

You don't HAVE TO HAVE ONE, they aren't that much better than the stock ones. BS AGAIN....if that were true they wouldn't sell. Racers are sheep. If a fast guy wins with one everyone wants one. New guys get caught up in the buying spree....get tired of the flavor of the month frenzy and quit.

You have just escallated the new car of the week frenzy and made the feeding slightly easier by the cost of the chassis of the week.

I agree with driveline requirements and I will go forOEM stiffer alumiinum chassis AS LONG AS ALL SUSPENSION AND FUEL TANK MOUNTING POINTS ARE IN THE STOCK LOCATION.

If you want aftermarket parts to offset...........DO IT WITH THE A ARMS. It is more effective both performance and cost wise. I would have NO problem with that.

I am sure you listened to YOUR racers and you should. But this is a bigger picture.

Nationally there is no need for a "beginners" or Rookie class. somebody will try to run it to cherry pick, and it dilutes the racing.

Bottom line.......with too many Classes, "small businesses" turning out trick chassis making a quick buck until the next guys trick chassis wins, and a "Run Watcha Brung until someone BRINGS TOO MUCH" attitude will NATIONALLY do to this class EXACTLY what has been done to the Mni Sliders


I know innovation and going fast have been the main points of many racers and I would think that would lead racers to want to run big power with side panels on the cars (Open Class). The debate between the NSCS style and the Open style racers has been mainly about those points. What I see is rules very close to each other with one group wanting a spec engine class and the other group wanting more stock type cars. Both groups use their rules for the same reasons. The spec engine rule is used because it slows the cars down and makes for closer racing. The stock car rule slows the cars down and makes for closer racing. I see both theories being legit and working. With those facts in mind I do not understand the amount of argument and fear at times about the others thoughts and rules. Both groups are doing the same thing just using different methods.

Very True Statements.........................

If you guys want............I HAVE talked to many of you across the country in person and on line. I understand what you are doing and why in your aera. I feel relatively confident that I can take the ONLY NATIONAL 1/8 oval rules EVER WRITTEN and update them with enough freedom to make MOST people happy........and with a little cooperation and give and take EVERYONE but a very few.

If you want me to do it I will..........
I did it once, and know where my mistakes were, and where compromises need to be made for almost EVERYONE.
And there will be TWO (2) classes.

[donnie victor]

As this class continues to grow so will the track sizes. Ott has put alot of thought into this classes rules. But I think they are for the smaller tracks that are in use today. There are a couple of super speedways out there and some of the newer tracks that are being built are making them up to and over 300ft. I think the size of the tracks will promote the rules that will be used. I dont think putting the new racers in the open class just because of their engine size. If they are constantly getting spanked by the more experienced guys, where is the incentive to move up to a (smaller engine) class and get beat up even more. Doesnt make much sense to me... Just my two cents. I do think "Ott's" rules should be considered as a basic guide line for these cars. :thumbsup: :revs: :greenflag:

[Dlan44]

As this class continues to grow so will the track sizes. Ott has put alot of thought into this classes rules. But I think they are for the smaller tracks that are in use today. There are a couple of super speedways out there and some of the newer tracks that are being built are making them up to and over 300ft. I think the size of the tracks will promote the rules that will be used. I dont think putting the new racers in the open class just because of their engine size. If they are constantly getting spanked by the more experienced guys, where is the incentive to move up to a (smaller engine) class and get beat up even more. Doesnt make much sense to me... Just my two cents. I do think "Ott's" rules should be considered as a basic guide line for these cars. :thumbsup: :revs: :greenflag:


For a local track or series I totally agree Donnie but NOT FOR A NATIONAL SET OF RULES!

For the most part Rookies will not run Nationally but if they do, they should be seeded in the qualifiers by their performance or experience level in WHAT EVER class they choose.

[sps3172]

Dlan44,

Would either of your 2 proposed classes support/allow a purpose built ovar car?

If you have at least one 'spec' type class for people that don't want to be on the 'bleeding edge' it doesn't seem smart to stifle developement.....that's starting to sound like the oil companies stifling development of alternative energy sources *smile*

[speed4less]

What does open mean? Open in the DODC 1/10 LM is .12 or a stock .15 RTR motor and no side dam. Open in the DODC rules doesn't realy mean open. The open class in the DLMRA is for the guy who just bought a car with a RTR 28 or .30 or .32 motor or whatever motor and shows up at a track wanting to race. You do not have a experienced guy in the open class. The only reason to have a open class is so the Cheap RTR car and the guy who is just starting and don't have the equipment to run in the spec classes. Please do not get hung up on the name of the classes. All racing has spec's that is what rules are. The sportsman class is for the guys who can only run so fast. It may be because of talent or equipment. That is why you set that class at a max number of laps. Equipment will not be a factor. You set your number of laps to determine who can be in this class. A guy with talent can take a box stock car and be completive or a guy with less talent can take a $2000 car and be completive. They both can only turn so many laps or move up. As a track owner do not let anyone dominate any class even your fastest classes. Do inverts, move people into the proper classes. If guys are getting ready to go racing and don't feel they have chance in he!! of winning they will find something else to do. If you use the DLMRA rules or not just remember to keep the racing fun for everyone.
Dlan44,
The Ofna is a offset chassis. They will be new cars coming soon that are built for this class. No one can say they aren't legal (by the rules in place for 2009) because they will be buggy based and box stock.

[Dlan44]

Dlan44,

Would either of your 2 proposed classes support/allow a purpose built ovar car?

If you have at least one 'spec' type class for people that don't want to be on the 'bleeding edge' it doesn't seem smart to stifle developement.....that's starting to sound like the oil companies stifling development of alternative energy sources *smile*

YES............gimme a minute and I will show you.......

you made me thinl of something else.

[Dlan44]

OK............there may be some typos, but I did a quick cut/paste of the old National rules for one class and made two.

Let me know honestly if I am close........be gentile. I heard face to face all the comments on the original one class rules.

[Joey Hornick]

I'm glad someone else is wasting their time on trying to get the few that read and post on here to agree to a set of rules why probably about 75% or more of the racers that run at their local tracks on a weekly basis don't get on here to provide their opinions.

If you want my opinion, get with a majority of the track owners and get their feedback since they will be the once that say Yes we will adopt these rules, or No they are no good.

[Dlan44]

I'm glad someone else is wasting their time on trying to get the few that read and post on here to agree to a set of rules why probably about 75% or more of the racers that run at their local tracks on a weekly basis don't get on here to provide their opinions.

If you want my opinion, get with a majority of the track owners and get their feedback since they will be the once that say Yes we will adopt these rules, or No they are no good.

I am not worried about what a track owner runs on a weekly basis. He is not going to turn an entry fee away because of a body or tire, and I don't blame him. he has to do what he can to survive then do his part if he wants to promote series and/or National racing.

Unless I am sadly mistaken there were only a few "track owners" involved in the DODC rules i.e. Chris McKinney, Steve Bess, and Mike Beidel. these guys are involved in probably the largest series in the country as well as the Open Wheel. they have a vested interest in a ruled package. Most track owners just want a guideline......if that....and a series usually polices itself.

[donnie victor]

No matter who owns the track should not be the deciding factor. Racing and going fast is do to ability and experience. Personaly I dont care who makes your race car or what engine is in it. We should qualifiy these cars one at a time. And be done with all the rules except a limit on weight, side dams and tires. Problem solved. Most racers either full size or RC want to run what they brung and hope the brung enough. That will never change. So qualifiy the cars one at a time then we can get on with the show. :revs: :greenflag:

[JW8]

Donnie- you are sitting in the perfect position. You are in control of a sanctioning body. Do exactly what you just typed. Test it out and lets see how it goes. I think more real world experience in making rules makes alot of sense. Go for it and let us know how it goes.

[sps3172]

OK............there may be some typos, but I did a quick cut/paste of the old National rules for one class and made two.

Let me know honestly if I am close........be gentile. I heard face to face all the comments on the original one class rules.

I'm sure there's a little room to bicker over sidedam height and engine choice, blah blah blah...but basically, I think a format like this is perfect for national rules. There's clearly a budget/limited class and clearly a class to push the envelope. Tracks are given the option of specifying tires/aero. If Rob and the DODC did ever stamp their name on something, I'd bet it would a lot like this.

[Dlan44]

We should qualifiy these cars one at a time. And be done with all the rules except a limit on weight, side dams and tires. Problem solved. Most racers either full size or RC want to run what they brung and hope the brung enough. That will never change. So qualifiy the cars one at a time then we can get on with the show. :revs: :greenflag:

EVERY promoter I have EVER worked with that tried single car qualifing that had more than 30-40 entries NEVER did it again.
Run watcha brung always sounds good until someone with DEEP POCKETS or serious machinists skills that can drive shows up and spanks everyone. Just watch the rules come then........or watch the racers go.
You can't have it both ways.

Donnie- you are sitting in the perfect position. You are in control of a sanctioning body. Do exactly what you just typed. Test it out and lets see how it goes. I think more real world experience in making rules makes alot of sense. Go for it and let us know how it goes.

There are a number of Regional Sanctioning bodies that can't get on the same page now. That is part of the reason for this discussion.

If Experience is what you want, I was in control of a National Sanctioning Body for two years and have the scars to prove it. I had races in Arizona, Texas, Illinois, Florida, North Carolina, and Pennsylvania. Did I make mistakes......sure. Did I learn from my racers.......you betcha......a bunch. Not on line but face to face. there were problems and I did what I could within the wishes and controls put on me by the Sanctioning Body. The suggestions given me by those racers plus guys that call me, Guys I race with occasionally, and you here on line is what was the basis of the rules set I posted. It is the best compromise I could come up with. I don't believe there are very many cars in the US thet wouldn't fit into one of those classes..

Keep in mind......these are just suggestions just like Donnie's "run watcha brung"

DODC won't go for that, but a structured set of rules that most racers agree on would be a start for them and just maybe .........with some luck.......they might consider adopting a set of 1/8 scale rules. After all many of the DODC events Nationally do not run all the classes........you will NEVER see this class at the Open Wheel but just maybe we can draw in more participation with 1/8 scales at some of the events that could boost car counts in ALL DODC CLASSES.


I'm sure there's a little room to bicker over sidedam height and engine choice, blah blah blah...but basically, I think a format like this is perfect for national rules. There's clearly a budget/limited class and clearly a class to push the envelope. Tracks are given the option of specifying tires/aero. If Rob and the DODC did ever stamp their name on something, I'd bet it would a lot like this.

Thank you Very Much...............It is just an Idea.......and hopefully a start.

[plipitkc]

Thanks for the clarification Mike. After this past week at Joplin, I am being conveted on the thought of limiting the engine displacement and restricting the level of competition by laps completed.

Having an OPEN class that accepts the RTR cars and engines and the "RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG" philosophy is great and should be kept in. Limiting the engine displacement and adding driver skill level teirs to keep the competition close works to.

Who will be monitoring this and how will it be regulated? Would a DODC liscence be required like what is required in the full sized ranks? Is the idea of the DODC rules package still a guideline for competition or have we diverted our thought process again?

Can we set aside the bickering about sidedams and other things so we can complete the big picture first.

Chew on this thought.

Outlaw - Engine displacement is unlimited, Any car configuration allowed,

Limited Expert Class - Engine displacement limited to 5 ports max, Car configuration limited to buggy based, Driver skill dependent or restricted.

Limited Sportsman Class - Engine displacement limited to 5 ports box stock max., Car configuration to be buggy based, Driver skilll dependent but less restricted than Expert. Once a driver is moved to or qualifies as EXPERT can not run the same track as a SPORTSMAN.

Why did I chose a 5 port, I believe a 3 port engine is great for learning but doesn"t really have the power to make the L8M class interesting. the 5 ports add that thrill.

Hitman, you are doing a great job:thumbsup:.

These are just my thoughts since I have a lot of time on the road to think.

Phil

[Dlan44]

Having an OPEN class that accepts the RTR cars and engines and the "RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG" philosophy is great and should be kept in. Limiting the engine displacement and adding driver skill level teirs to keep the competition close works to.

Who will be monitoring this and how will it be regulated? Would a DODC liscence be required like what is required in the full sized ranks? Is the idea of the DODC rules package still a guideline for competition or have we diverted our thought process again?

Can we set aside the bickering about sidedams and other things so we can complete the big picture first.

Chew on this thought.

Outlaw - Engine displacement is unlimited, Any car configuration allowed,

Limited Expert Class - Engine displacement limited to 5 ports max, Car configuration limited to buggy based, Driver skill dependent or restricted.

Limited Sportsman Class - Engine displacement limited to 5 ports box stock max., Car configuration to be buggy based, Driver skilll dependent but less restricted than Expert. Once a driver is moved to or qualifies as EXPERT can not run the same track as a SPORTSMAN.


These are just my thoughts since I have a lot of time on the road to think.

Phil

All of these would be good for weekly races but NOT NATIONALLY!

All you will succeed in doing is diluting the classes and pissin people off about WHO IS AN EXPERT????

If skill level is an issue........THAT IS WHAT QUALIFIERS ARE FOR (for rhe fourth time).

For hopefully the last time.......

(1) SEED THE QUALIFIERS BASED ON SKILL/PERFORMANCE

(2) RESORT THE QUALIFIERS AFTER 1 OR USUALLY 2.

Do this and the cream will come to the top.......it always has and always will. This has been done for YEARS with MANY series and has always worked.

[Joey Hornick]

I don't think defining who an "Expert" would be is difficult. They do it at the Open Wheel Nationals each year.

[Dlan44]

I don't think defining who an "Expert" would be is difficult. They do it at the Open Wheel Nationals each year.

That is one event with many long time racers. All you do is single out previous winners snd manufacturer backed drivers. Try that at most regional events and you will have 5-6 experts........maybe.In 1/8 scale it will even be less........2-3.

[Joey Hornick]

Another typical response from you dlan44. Why don't you let those that run these cars on a regular basis give comments.

[speed4less]

Phil,
The three ports I have listed are plenty of motor for anyone. The Open Late Model class at the Nat's at C&S was won with the Nova BF.21 against open motors. C&S is a very high bite foam track.
Thank you Joey.:D

[plipitkc]

Ok, So we won't worry about how many ports the engine has. This week and in weeks past I know a few racers running the 3 ports in the NSCS have lost engines while competing with the larger hp engines in the PRO class. That is my concern here with limiting this to a small block engine on loose tracks is all.

I agree with the less is more philosophy but I still went out and bought a 7 port PICCO to run in the NSCS this year.

The question of how to determine who is an EXPERT or qualifies to run in the EXPERT class. That is a tough question because all of us arrogant hard headed rednecked racers think we are EXPERTS regardless of the subject. LMAO now.

The best way is a multiple step process.

1. Driver must sign up in the correct class and be honest with themselves.

2. Race directors must pay attention to the performance of each driver during the qualifiers and be prepared to move a driver to a different class if he deems it necessary. The sooner, the better for all.

3. Use the resorts after each qualifier to "bring the cream to the top" and maybe skim that cream into the other class to improve the competition in the lower class.

4. Publish the list of EXPERT drivers who qualified for the A-Main so at the next race the EXPERT class will already start to be populated. Yes this will take a little effort and time on the race host and race directors but in the end it will be well worth it.

Enough for now.

Phil:greenflag:

[Dlan44]

Another typical response from you dlan44. Why don't you let those that run these cars on a regular basis give comments.

FYI, if you thought my comment ment that there were very few people racing 1/8 that could be considered 'expert" you were wrong.
My comment ment that using the criteria Rob uses at the Open Wheel, and how many 1/8 cars are at a given event, only 2-5 would qualify as "Experts" by Open Wheel standards.

Everyone that owns one of these cars has a right to a comment......I have two.

That would be like me saying you don't have a right to comment because you haven't raced outside your state or region.

i am trying to ad some sperience to the discussion.
Instead of rules you guys are trying to find out who the "experts are"

Good Luck.....................

If you can make the "A" at Big Bills, or C&S , and your last name is Fie or Dean.........

You MIGHT be an EXPERT...............

[Joey Hornick]

How many years did it take to get the Open Wheel Nationals rules to the level that they are at now?

Yes there will be some guys that want to sandbag so that can win a big race, however guess what happens the following year, they have to move up. I'm sure that if there is ever a race that is large enough like the USOW that for every driver, there will be others from that racers area that can either back them up how they deserve to be in the limited division or say they are competitive to be in the "Expert" class.

And don't think that just C&S & Big Bills are the only tracks that would be the deciding factors. You can take many tracks in the US that run on a weekly basis or on an annual basis such as the Chili Bowl Jr. or even Donnie Victors new series track.

This boils down to racers and their integrity personally. If a racers want to lie to be in a limited class just to get a win, then so be it. He would be the one that has to live with him being dishonest.

[Dlan44]

How many years did it take to get the Open Wheel Nationals rules to the level that they are at now?

Yes there will be some guys that want to sandbag so that can win a big race, however guess what happens the following year, they have to move up. I'm sure that if there is ever a race that is large enough like the USOW that for every driver, there will be others from that racers area that can either back them up how they deserve to be in the limited division or say they are competitive to be in the "Expert" class.

And don't think that just C&S & Big Bills are the only tracks that would be the deciding factors. You can take many tracks in the US that run on a weekly basis or on an annual basis such as the Chili Bowl Jr. or even Donnie Victors new series track.

This boils down to racers and their integrity personally. If a racers want to lie to be in a limited class just to get a win, then so be it. He would be the one that has to live with him being dishonest.


Joey, you really don't understand.

The Open Wheel does not have an "Expert" class.

Anyone with a legal car and the entry fee can run open. Rob initiated the Limited class to give more guys a chance at some hardware. Guys that win the A, can't run the class the next year and the original guys that were restricted from running Limited were Previous winners and sponsored drivers.

To date those two tracks have had some excellent 1/8 shows. I am told that so has Lil Dover and Music City is well on their way. Donnie will probably have 50 or so cars. If you split them into three classes that just dilutes the show. I really don't think they do that, but I am not familiar with their class structure. I would much rather finish midpack in a 50 car field than top 5 in a 10 car field.

methinks we need to start a thread in the nitro section called......
"YOU might be an EXPERT" if...................

(I will even start it off) (1) Billy Fisher and Chris Cramer move over and let YOU by

[Joey Hornick]

I give up trying to help you understand Dlan44, its a waste of time and energy. Your series failed, so just let someone else provide some quality input for once.

I think the show you put on at Indy last year for the NSCS show is a good representation of your driving.

[Dlan44]

I give up trying to help you understand Dlan44, its a waste of time and energy. Your series failed, so just let someone else provide some quality input for once.

I think the show you put on at Indy last year for the NSCS show is a good representation of your driving.

First off it wasn't MY series. it was Carlton Eppes Series and I had to work within their guidelines. The rules had nothing to do with why it wasn't continued. Those rules improved each year and I see some of the things we did incorperated in rules today. For example optional 7X7 wings on cars running loose dirt and allowing .15 RTR engines. The next seasons rules were even better made so by listening to racers and track owners face to face and not hidden on line. That set of rules died when RC pro pulled the plug on dirt oval just like they did on their On Road series at the same time. I know why, but I am not at liberty to say in a public forum. Aske me in person some time. That being said the two years as Director give me the unique opportunity to talk with hundreds of racers Nationwide and what I learned was invaluable when it comes to understanding each areas reasons for the way they do things and what their desires are. The one handicap is that I tend to look at the big picture now. Local and Regional promoters can and will do what ever they need to to survive no matter what you or I think. just like NSCS running truck based EDM's and the outlaw series running Bombers. i prefer the EDM but in a local series.........it is what ever gives you the most car count. Nationally, neither would make it.............but the 1/8 scales will if everyone would open their mind to what would work for them NATIONALLY and quit worrying about wings, tires, and experts..

I will admit and have on here publically that on that day with a borrowed car I could not get it around the track. I drove a similar car in Florida that year and had NO PROBLEMS. That racer posts on here and can verify that. When someone is good enough to loan me a car i am not going to make many changes to it for me. Especially since that car had never been set up for that track. i was smart enough to not attempt to race it.
i did run Bakers EDM and had a BALL. Without spinning out on the straitaway.

Right now I am in Georgia, 100mi from the closest can of lexan paint......let alone a track. If work doesn't get in the way........I am going to try to run C&S this summer. I already have a volunteer tuner.......Antilley! As long as he doesn't have to assemble a clutch.....we should be OK. When I get to race, i go to have fun. If I make the A.....that is a bonus.

[sps3172]

Anyone care to get back to talking about rules?

I think the distinction that Dlan44 was making is that with a 'NATIONAL' set of rules, you don't regulate the skill level of the drivers in a given class. You sepecify the equipment, competiton structure (race lenght, etc).

At the event level (local or national) the race organizer can make distinctions in skill level.

For example, we have a a number of 'factory fast' offroad guys at our local track. As such, we offer a 'sportsman' modified buggy class for the people that aren't as intense about their racing but want to run modified. This doesn't need to be in the ROAR national rulebook...it just happens to work at our LOCAL track. They run the same ROAR legal equipment as the standard modified buggy class.

The same holds true in terms of offering a 'novice' type class. This doesn't need to be part of the 'National' rules. But a given track could always offer their own if the situation warrants it.

Make sense?

[04Xterra]

That does seem to make sense. Give a Rubber Tire Class set of rules and a Foam Tire Class set of rules, then let the regional tracks decided whether or not to break the classes up into Novice, Sportsman, Expert etc.

[plipitkc]

If there is going to be two classes then we need to determine who is qualified to run in each class.

Otherwise this specification should deal only in the mechanical aspects of the equipment.

IE chassis mount points, chassis materials, tire specifications, buggy based definition, and allowed engine displacement and condition. If this is the path then we should add body and overall dimensions and materials. We'll then need drawings and diagrams for the manufacturers to determine if they want to get into the market or not. Blah, blah, blah.

Mike's set of rules are very good and I can support them but I believe we need to go a little further if this is going to make it as a national specification.

Anyone starting to see the big picture yet?

Phil

[04Xterra]

Phil,
I'm not sure I'm following you here. Could you expand on your statement about who would be qualified to run in each class? What "each class" are you talking about?

[Dlan44]

If there is going to be two classes then we need to determine who is qualified to run in each class.

Otherwise this specification should deal only in the mechanical aspects of the equipment.

Phil


HuH???? :confused:

Anyone is "qualified" that has a legal car.

Did you read the rules I posted.................I believe they had most if not everything you are asking for.

[plipitkc]

Just got my laptop back today and read the rules package. Looks good and covers everything. :checkeredflag:

The only concern I have is the "molded rear wing or spoiler" because the only molded spoiler I know of is made by LOSI. :yellowflag:

Can we modify it to be just a rear spoiler or wing... That would allow those who fab the spoilers like C&M and myself along with others using flat material and cutting them out.

I like how you specified the engine size but still allows the limited class to run with the supers if they want.:thumbsup:

Later

Phil

[Dlan44]

Just got my laptop back today and read the rules package. Looks good and covers everything. :checkeredflag:

The only concern I have is the "molded rear wing or spoiler" because the only molded spoiler I know of is made by LOSI. :yellowflag:

Can we modify it to be just a rear spoiler or wing... That would allow those who fab the spoilers like C&M and myself along with others using flat material and cutting them out.

I like how you specified the engine size but still allows the limited class to run with the supers if they want.:thumbsup:

Later

Phil


that was something chopped from 1/10 scale. It means molded in..........or a lexan spoiler (home made)

[plipitkc]

I had another thought regarding the engine part of this specification. It needs to be something that can work for the travelers who may pop in on a distant track because they are on vacation or just there.

An example would be a person currently racing in the NSCS with, say, a DODC spec 5 port RB L2G shows up at Ottingers track with a completely DODC spec legal car for the DODC Spec clas but the Ottinger track only allows the three port mills to run in that class. But says that driver can run in the open with a side damn....

The question here is "If the driver owned car is completely legal according to the DODC specification, then would he be legal to run in the Ottinger Track Spec class which is based on the DODC spec with the local exception of the 3 port engines."

Yes, I've been on another long road trip to western Nebraska. 10-1/2 hours each way.

Remember the purpose of a National L8M Specification for a class is to allow interchange drivers the ability to compete at these tracks without having to spend a large amount $$ just to run.

Later and happy thoughts

Phil:D

[tmr22]

He can run the spec class providing that he have 1 of the three specified motors. If not then he will be required to run in the open class. If he doesn't want to put a side dam on the car then it will be his loss.

[Ovaloldtimer]

If he doesnt have one of the 3 motors listed he has to run in the open class

[luke81]

First off it wasn't MY series. it was Carlton Eppes Series and I had to work within their guidelines. The rules had nothing to do with why it wasn't continued. Those rules improved each year and I see some of the things we did incorperated in rules today. For example optional 7X7 wings on cars running loose dirt and allowing .15 RTR engines. The next seasons rules were even better made so by listening to racers and track owners face to face and not hidden on line. That set of rules died when RC pro pulled the plug on dirt oval just like they did on their On Road series at the same time. I know why, but I am not at liberty to say in a public forum.


That series failed because of how it was operated. YOU didn't even know the rules of your own series at the "finals" in Tampa - I would know, since I won a (so called) "national championship" at that event.

[tmr22]

Phil, Just a question. Why are you so adimant about having a National set of rules? I personally think that it should not happen until we get more manufactures involved in building these cars. Not just 2. Losi and Ofna. I would understand if there were 5 -10 manufactures involved but what is the use with just 2?

[donnie victor]

The National Rule Package should be basic guide lines. Most of the rules are totaly out of hand. You shouldnt need more the Five rules. Whats the point, there is nothing to be gained if you win a race. Maybe a trophy or a couple hundred bucks. All this rule crap is over rated. All the rules seem to do is piss people off. So why bother. Run what you brung and hope you brung enough works for most of us.... :confused:

[04Xterra]

Donnie,

Would you be against a set of guidelines that governs basic chassis dimensions, for example max/min wheelbase, max/min track width, max/min weight, max/min fuel tank size?

[sps3172]

Phil, Just a question. Why are you so adimant about having a National set of rules? I personally think that it should not happen until we get more manufactures involved in building these cars. Not just 2. Losi and Ofna. I would understand if there were 5 -10 manufactures involved but what is the use with just 2?

Actually, the rules need to come BEFORE you could expect manufacturers to design a car for the class. What 'specs' are they supposed to design the car around at this point?

Make sense?

[donnie victor]

Take the Top four winner's from all of the 8th LM Big Race's. I think with their idea's and innovation's that any larger company could build a great race car....:thumbsup: Get the info from the racer's not some engineer setting on his butt in some high rise....:confused:

[04Xterra]

That could possibly work. I would like to see the rules give max/min chassis dimensions and let the racers go from there. Then let the local tracks decide on what other rules they would like to add. Keep It Simple!!

[plipitkc]

Phil, Just a question. Why are you so adimant about having a National set of rules? I personally think that it should not happen until we get more manufactures involved in building these cars. Not just 2. Losi and Ofna. I would understand if there were 5 -10 manufactures involved but what is the use with just 2?

Actually, the rules need to come BEFORE you could expect manufacturers to design a car for the class. What 'specs' are they supposed to design the car around at this point?

Question has been asked and answered. I concur with sps3172. We want series sponsors, event sponsors, and local track sponsors to help with expenses and attracting racers to that track, event, or series but you have to give them something to support and get a return for their investment.

Unfortunately, to date there are only two manufacturers willing to invest in this sport. The other two are waiting to see where it goes before investing. And I have been told that by one of them already.

I'm adimant about a national spec to help grow the sport, not hurt it, but all this bickering, blah, blah, and its' this name not that name is BS and won't accomplish anything.

The racers in this forum can't even get organized on a peice of paper let alone develop a non-biased, constructive specification that can be applied throughout the United States to allow racers who wish to race outside their home area the ability to economically do that. Remember I said ECONOMICALLY and yes I'm yelling now.

There is a good spec out there and has been put out in various forms more than once but no one wants to agree on small points which stops the effort every time. Set the personal feelings aside and put on the reasoning cap so we can put this to bed before we all grow to old to play with our toy cars.

If I was to build a track in northern KS, I would adopt Mikes rule package with this exception, I would specify a 5 port engine package with a maximum nitro content of 25% in the spec class. So any racer running at my track can still compete in the local sanctioning body (NSCS) without changing a thing on their car. That is what a "National Spec" means to me.

But this is what I would do if I opened a track but that can't happen at this point in time.


Phil

[tmr22]

That could possibly work. I would like to see the rules give max/min chassis dimensions and let the racers go from there. Then let the local tracks decide on what other rules they would like to add. Keep It Simple!!

That is the best idea I have heard. Give a max width, max size tank, max length, must use buggy based components and leave the rest up to a racers mind. Set a tire rule as losi dlm, ofna spec, and foam. Spoiler rule. Engine size, and go from there.

[04Xterra]

That is the best idea I have heard. Give a max width, max size tank, max length, must use buggy based components and leave the rest up to a racers mind. Set a tire rule as losi dlm, ofna spec, and foam. Spoiler rule. Engine size, and go from there.

I really don't see why this wouldn't work. Unless I am over looking something of course.

[speed4less]

Here is all the rules we need for a base for the National rules. The tracks can work with this to make it work for them. We just need to stay with the motor, buggy base and body rules close. That way we all can run and not have to buy anything but tires for the track you are at and maybe you won't have to do that. The motor is the most important part. We all already have the rest. Don't put in the rules if it don't say you can do it then it isn't legal.
http://www.ottsspeedshop.com/sitebuilder/images/DLMRALogo-170x120.jpg

2010-1/8 Late Model Rules:
Must be 1/8 buggy based drive train, no offsetting a-arms
or narrowing. Must have dog bone center drive train, no
on-road drive trains.
No one off cars. All cars must be production based.
Wheel base: 125/8" to 13"
Width: 12 1/4" max. - 11 1/4" min.
Any and all parts except the body must be flush or in side
the tread width. 1/8 tolerance.
All chassis and tires must remain inside the body. (LM)
There will be no metal body parts of any kind.
No metal or carbon fiber front bumpers.
Must have foam on the front bumper.
Motors:
Three motors are legal: Nova BF21 2001,OS .21VG, and RB .21 S3 These motors must remain box stock no modifications of any kind. You can use different plugs(5,6,7 & so no turbo plugs.
Bodies:
Molded one piece bodies only, No side dams 3" max rear spoiler. The end caps must be a triangle shape.(See template) You may have one fin on the spoiler and two side caps.
The third fin must also be the same dimension as side cap. It can be located anywhere on the spoiler between the two side caps. The fin must be in line with the side caps on the front leading edge.
Tires:
Track choice from these tires.
Foam or Spec rubber tires
The only rubber tires allowed are Ofna Tire Part number 86505 this is the pre-mount tire. The 86052 and 86053 are also legal.
Losi Tire Part number LOSA 17758 This is the tire that comes with Losi LM roller There will not be any grooving or sipping of the rubber tires.
Weight:
8lb. at any time

[04Xterra]

Do you really need to limit the motor choice if you are limiting the tire choice?

[Dlan44]

That series failed because of how it was operated. YOU didn't even know the rules of your own series at the "finals" in Tampa - I would know, since I won a (so called) "national championship" at that event.

I have abloutely no idea what you are talking about and I really don't think you do either.

This is something best discussed in private (Eddie and Larry BOTH have my cell number), however as I recollect everyone had access to the rules on line wheater I could quote word and verse or not. One of the problems was that instead of reading those rules they asked the promoter and some people were told some things that didn't necessarily comply with the rules. I was left with doing the best I could for the racers........or at least the few that weren't misled by the promoter or internet chat rooms and entered the event.

All it takes is bickering on line and misinformation to hurt a series. I had to operate on a shoe string budget and my own credit cards to try to keep it going. All I needed was cooperation, and I got very little of that.

ALL you have to do is read this thread to see how well you guys cooperate with each other.............let alone someone trying his best to start a National series running in 4 regions and 6 states.


Small builders and innovaters do a fantastic job with the products they provide us. HOWEVER that engineer has a corperation behind him and the responsibility to dezine a car that is PRODUCABLE. Mass produced cars is the way to provide low cost platforms to race on.

As I recall in the rules I posted I suggested a maximum MSRP for Limited engines. The Three engines would fit in there. The Spec engines was a Promoter/Series Rule that could change in time..............You have to start somewhere.....

Until then, you only have one option. Make the car fit the rules wherever you race........
Local weekly racing rules will ALWAYS have their own personality

[Dlan44]

Speed4less, those rules will work, but the width might be a little close on some molded bodies. I like the min. width.
The only catch points is how do you decide between 1 of and mass produced. There may be some chassis that there may be 2-12 of that would fit in and not be redily available for everyone.
Finally, the engine rule would be OK with me, but some guys would have to buy an engine.

[speed4less]

Dlan44:
The width is referring to tread wdith not body.
It don't have to be mass produced but should be available.
The bodies really need to be approved.



No matter what the rules are you know if you are out side of the box. If you think you are then you need to check with your track and or the rules director. We could rules this to death or keep it somewhat open with as few rules as possible. I think the DLMRA rules do that. With the rules I have we can go anywhere and race. Yes some will need a motor. I think by the 2010 race season we all could have the proper motors. If we can get the tracks to go by these rules I know of several small R/C companies that will get in on this market. They will do a conversion type car at a fair price. If you have a buggy base car all you will need is the conversion kit. These kit will be very versatile. They could have conversion kits that fit the car you have. It would be cool to convert any car any one may have to a top notch oval car for around $200. If I where an off road guy with brand x car and hundreds of dallors of parts all you need is the conversion kit and you could race oval.

[Barry Hill]

Dlan44:
The width is referring to tread wdith not body.
It don't have to be mass produced but should be available.
The bodies really need to be approved.



No matter what the rules are you know if you are out side of the box. If you think you are then you need to check with your track and or the rules director. We could rules this to death or keep it somewhat open with as few rules as possible. I think the DLMRA rules do that. With the rules I have we can go anywhere and race. Yes some will need a motor. I think by the 2010 race season we all could have the proper motors. If we can get the tracks to go by these rules I know of several small R/C companies that will get in on this market. They will do a conversion type car at a fair price. If you have a buggy base car all you will need is the conversion kit. These kit will be very versatile. They could have conversion kits that fit the car you have. It would be cool to convert any car any one may have to a top notch oval car for around $200. If I where an off road guy with brand x car and hundreds of dallors of parts all you need is the conversion kit and you could race oval.


That is what we want to do, do a graphite oval conversion for the ofna, losi and maybe some of the other 1/8 buggies on the market (xray, Associated, etc) but the rules have to be set and this is something that as to be addressed.

Thanks
Barry Hill
Hyperdrive/ Team GFRP

[04Xterra]

I'm still curious as to why the motor choice needs to be limited? Let the track and tires dictate how much power can be put down.

[donnie victor]

I'm still curious as to why the motor choice needs to be limited? Let the track and tires dictate how much power can be put down.I do not think limited engine selections or claimers help the class. Some one will ALWAYS MODIFIY their engine. So whats the point. Like he said you can only put down so much HP why bother with an engine spec. Stick with body, chassis, tire and side dam rules. That will save all of us money in the long run. IMO

[04Xterra]

I do not think limited engine selections or claimers help the class. Some one will ALWAYS MODIFIY their engine. So whats the point. Like he said you can only put down so much HP why bother with an engine spec. Stick with body, chassis, tire and side dam rules. That will save all of us money in the long run. IMO

Agreed!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

[loopedout]

I'll second that. I'm a huge opponent to the 3 engine rule although I do feel a claimer does work, but if you limit the other factors, the engines only in certain rare circumstances will make a difference.

[sps3172]

I know everyone likes to 'claim' they got beat simply because the other guy had more horsepower but....

....how often is that really the case?

[Dlan44]

I see both sides of this one....it is just a matter of how you want to do it.

(1) Open up the engine and spec the chassis/tires.

(2) Open up the chassis and spec the engine.

#1 is ok for the experienced racer. Hopefully he has learned how not to overpower his chassis. The new racer will have a tough time because all most of them know is "gimme more power".

#2 will give you a car thst is stuck but has less power. Great for the new guys but the go fast guys that like to spin tires won't like it.

Neither method has a cost advantage. Open engines can get pricey........as well as semi custom built chassis and drive line parts.

[04Xterra]

I would think it that teching tires and chassis would be easier and quicker than teching and engine.

Is the main goal of a "National" level event to attract the new guys or showcase the cream of the crop?

[Dlan44]

You guys are closer than you think to agreeing on something..........don't shoot yourself in the foot.

I knew the engines would be an issue. That is why I opted for a price limit on engines so some of the RTR's could run. Tech could be an issue...but not a huge one.

Tires, aero, that should be up to the promoter or series.

After market chassis.......I'm not convinced yet that a small business can make them available to everyone. Those things would end up being in small quantities regionally. I am warming up to the idea of allowing them though, provided you give the aluminum chassis guy a fighting chamne and leave the weight min. to 8.5lbs.

[Dlan44]

I would think it that teching tires and chassis would be easier and quicker than teching and engine.

Is the main goal of a "National" level event to attract the new guys or showcase the cream of the crop?


Tech can always become tedious. You just have to be smart about which engine you look at and when. No one says you have to look at every one.........and to what extent.


The purpose is to grow the hobby on a National level and make sure we get some new cream into racing before the old spoils.

[plipitkc]

I understand about limiting the motor cost which really takes care of the situation, you mentioned MSRP as the value used. Engines must remain stock.

AS for the after-market conversions, Set a minmum weight limit and a maximum distance of off-set allowed and you have my vote.

Fuel volume can be limited to 150 cc plus fuel line. Long lines take care of themselves...

My $125 by now. LMAO;)

Phil:thumbsup:

[tmr22]

If you are going to go with the claimer rule, then you will be going to make a bunch of people very upset. I am not going to say how, but it will happen. Del I will tell you that it will bite you in the ass and I can gaurantee that. I say let you do anything you want to the chassis. Make the weight rule 8.5 lbs. I also agree with the fuel tank 150 cc. Also make a limit on the fuel tubing. Let the rest work out with the tracks.

[sps3172]

If you are going to go with the claimer rule, then you will be going to make a bunch of people very upset. I am not going to say how, but it will happen. Del I will tell you that it will bite you in the ass and I can gaurantee that. I say let you do anything you want to the chassis. Make the weight rule 8.5 lbs. I also agree with the fuel tank 150 cc. Also make a limit on the fuel tubing. Let the rest work out with the tracks.


If you're going to set a fuel capacity limit, that typically INCLUDES the fuel tubing. The standard way of measuring tank capacity takes into account the fuel stored in the pickup line (and therefore line length).

By the way....I still think that 150cc is WAY too much fuel for 4 minute racing (especially if you have some interest in limiting cost/power).

[donnie victor]

If you are going to go with the claimer rule, then you will be going to make a bunch of people very upset. I am not going to say how, but it will happen. Del I will tell you that it will bite you in the ass and I can gaurantee that. I say let you do anything you want to the chassis. Make the weight rule 8.5 lbs. I also agree with the fuel tank 150 cc. Also make a limit on the fuel tubing. Let the rest work out with the tracks.:thumbsup: :revs: :greenflag: :whiteflag: :checkeredflag: :trophy:

[Barry Hill]

After market chassis.......I'm not convinced yet that a small business can make them available to everyone. Those things would end up being in small quantities regionally. I am warming up to the idea of allowing them though, provided you give the aluminum chassis guy a fighting chamne and leave the weight min. to 8.5lbs.[/quote]


Speak for yourself, everything we do is on a national level. If they are allowed and we choose to go forward with a couple of 1/8 graphite conversions, THEY WOULD BE AVAILABLE.

While I am at it, I don't understand people complaint about the 3 motor choices.

1. you have three choices not just one
2. you can not alter any of them in any way
3. one company does not have all the market, so if for some reason that motor becomes unavailable then what?

just my thoughts on the motor thing.

Thanks
Barry Hill
Hyperdrive/Team GFRP

[Dano628]

I think the motor thing is a non issue I come from an offroad background and I still run 1/8 buggy and truggy we are allowed to use any .21 in buggy and any .28 in truggy and both this classes are huge .The thing we have in common is we all want the class to grow we want more manufacturers involved .As of now there is two Ofna and Losi neither one comes with a engine If Associated Kyosho Hyperdrive or Custom Works were to get involved they would be making chassis not engines the engine thing will sort itself out you can only put down so much power .So in my opinion we need to have a minium weight rule chassis rules body rules max engine size rules and tire rules for a national class

[speed4less]

On a good clay high bite dirt oval you can use all the HP you can buy! That will kill your class. I have seen it happen already at one track. This class is to new for that to be happening! This is not off road.



The motor rule is one of the most important parts. The three motors are cheap, good and plentiful. If we are running one of the three motors and go to the Nat's at track x and they allow open motors you are beat or buy a motor. We had the Nat's at C&S last year and we had been running by the three motor rule. When Steve had the Nat's he had to open the motor rule up so the racers from other areas could race. After the Nat's, C&S left the motor rule open and it was three months and the Fall Classic before we had enough to run again. Any motor may work at some tracks but it will not work on high bite foam tire tracks. On most foam tire tracks you can hookup all the power you can buy. Putting a cap on motor cost will not work you can buy ballistic cheap motors and they won't last a few weeks. Motor clamier rules don't work. I'm not going to give all the scenarios that can cause you a lot of problems. These three motors are as fast as anyone can "race" with. By 2010 everyone would know that is the motor you have to have just like the Limited class in the DODC. Using the three motor rule will keep the price down(competition between the motor companies) and we can go anywhere and race on a level playing field. The most important thing of all is close, tight and competitive racing for everyone from beginners to Pros. The track can have a class where you can run any motor if they want but all the points and National events go by the three motors. For all the guys who have not run under this format you don't know what you are missing. The racing is very tight. These motors can work at any track. I personally don't care what the rules are I can and will buy what ever I need to be competitive. I'm just trying to help this class grow.

[JW8]

Speed- we do not run on foams in my area. I would bet they do allow the cars to hook up more engine. I can imagine that is an issue that you needed to address and the rule looks like it does what you intended. Now on rubber tires on loose track we see the same good racing. The three engine rule is to allow for more controlled cars and bring along the rookies. Locally we run a sportsman class for those drivers. The two sets of rules are both producing the same positive results. Major HP on loose tracks is actually a negative many times. With the positives of both types of thinking why not just allow both in the rules? In on road for example they have rubber tire and foam tire classes at Major Carpet races. There are Stock and Mod forms of racing all kinds of RC racing. Why can't there be two LM classes? Last year there was the race Smitty won in LM. They ran a Rubber Tire/Nscs Class and a more Foam tire class. (Wish I could remember the race). How did that event go? What did the racers think of that? That would be an example of a large event and including much of what many racers believe looks fun to them. Feed back on that would be interesting.

[sps3172]

Mike,

Are you saying that there shouldn't be an 'open' class on a national level? With national points? And a class at a national event?

[Dano628]

I posted on here a month ago you needed 2 classes limited and unlimited if the idea is to keep the price down you have the limited class and the guys who want more pop can run unlimited . There is a limited and unlimited class in 1/10 late model why not 1/8 . You need to address everyone interest . If you have 2 classes you can still go anywhere in country and race your car and as I said before in an earlier post the 2 L8 models on the market dont come with engines engine rules arent keeping more companies from getting envolved as far as Im concerned if there arent 2 classes your doing racers an injustice forcing them into someone elses idea of whats the right engine to run

[loopedout]

"Speak for yourself, everything we do is on a national level. If they are allowed and we choose to go forward with a couple of 1/8 graphite conversions, THEY WOULD BE AVAILABLE.

While I am at it, I don't understand people complaint about the 3 motor choices.

1. you have three choices not just one
2. you can not alter any of them in any way
3. one company does not have all the market, so if for some reason that motor becomes unavailable then what?

just my thoughts on the motor thing.

Thanks
Barry Hill
Hyperdrive/Team GFRP[/quote]"


Well for one example take guys that are sponsored by Horizon, they run Dynamite engines, and being that Losi is one of the biggest contributors currently in dirt oval, makes no sense to cut them out of the engine loop. Not to mention if someone picked up another engine sponsor outside the "three". The MSRP cap and no modding rule seems to be the best idea brought about yet. I for one rules or no rules would not buy one of the "three" engines, and I have yet to see one in this part of the country in a late model yet which tells me that they arent that popular or great if they were I would have surely seen a few of them.

[93TA]

just some food for thought... the no modding rule is only good if the motors are limited to 1-3 motors(the less the better). if u can run any motor, yet they have to be un-modded, that is a tech nitemare. i know i would never go by an open/unmodded engine rule in my series.

[sps3172]

Well for one example take guys that are sponsored by Horizon, they run Dynamite engines, and being that Losi is one of the biggest contributors currently in dirt oval, makes no sense to cut them out of the engine loop. Not to mention if someone picked up another engine sponsor outside the "three". The MSRP cap and no modding rule seems to be the best idea brought about yet. I for one rules or no rules would not buy one of the "three" engines, and I have yet to see one in this part of the country in a late model yet which tells me that they arent that popular or great if they were I would have surely seen a few of them.

AMEN to the point about alienating manufactures with 'spec' engines.

just some food for thought... the no modding rule is only good if the motors are limited to 1-3 motors(the less the better). if u can run any motor, yet they have to be un-modded, that is a tech nitemare. i know i would never go by an open/unmodded engine rule in my series.

All of a sudden, it doesn't seem quite so complicated to measure fuel capacity and allow ANY engine. People will still be limited to running whatever engine they can 'make time' with and the power levels will equalize. :)

On a serious note, I realize that this would require everyone to have a dedicated pit man (to fill his car right before the run) and can appreciate the difficulties this may cause.

Perhaps this can be revisited in a couple years when (not if...WHEN) this class is more popular. As the racer count grows, finding a pit guy becomes less of a problem.

[RichardsonRacng]

I know everyone likes to 'claim' they got beat simply because the other guy had more horsepower but....

....how often is that really the case?

That's not the point of a claimer.... It keeps cost down and keeps the high dollar motors from even showing up. What's the difference from that or setting a cap on the MSRP of the motor you run, other than it's not for sale. It's the same princable, keeping cost down. There are times and tracks that 2 well set-up cars will be divided by hp with the right drivers.

Thge 3 engine rule is ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!


At leat with an MSRP cap you wouldn't eliminate any MFG's and then you could control it better on the high bite clay tracks that was afore mentioned...jmo


The cool thing is, even with a "cap" it wouldn't affect us around here. Our Tax's are fast already with unmodded 4 bangers that cost under 200 bucks!!!!

[sps3172]

That's not the point of a claimer.... It keeps cost down and keeps the high dollar motors from even showing up. What's the difference from that or setting a cap on the MSRP of the motor you run, other than it's not for sale. It's the same princable, keeping cost down. There are times and tracks that 2 well set-up cars will be divided by hp with the right drivers.

Thge 3 engine rule is ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!


At leat with an MSRP cap you wouldn't eliminate any MFG's and then you could control it better on the high bite clay tracks that was afore mentioned...jmo


The cool thing is, even with a "cap" it wouldn't affect us around here. Our Tax's are fast already with unmodded 4 bangers that cost under 200 bucks!!!!

I wasn't referring to engine 'claiming' rules. I guess I can see how it might have sounded like that. I was referring to regulating power in the first place.

[Team GFRP]

Just a thought... Make them run a center spool, get rid of the front wheel drive components, then you have a real late model. Making them 2wd would make the whole motor issue go right out the window.

:p:p:p

[lukefresh58]

for motor - why not any .21 publicily avalible inside the us for $250 or less or the stock motor that came with your rtr or buggy kit.
as for bodies, a loose set of baseline rules is all that is really needed, leave the side dams and spoiler sizes up to the tracks as one setup will not work everywhere
same can be said for tires, a reccomendation for spec tire and open tire can be established to give manufacturers and tracks a baseline for rules and allow them to tweak for the needs of their drivers.
no 1 of a kind chassis
no home made drive line parts
all chassis components must be designed for that make and model of chassis

[DSR90]

I think the only thing that needs to be figured out for a national set of rules would be chassi and body. The tracks will decide motor and tires. Either way every track is different and will have a little difference in rules. For motors and tires i like choices not limits.

[04Xterra]

I think a maximum MSRP of $250 (just throwing a number out right now) for an engine, instead of limiting the choices to just 3 would be a better way to go. Don't allow any modifications to the motors. Give a maximum displacement allowed. Give a maximum nitro %. Boombam, time to go racing.

I got to finally race my 1/8 LM for the first this weekend and I want to see this class grow, stay competitive, and become as close to popularity as 1/8 off-road buggy is now. We need to keep our heads cool and be open to others ideas.

[Dlan44]

Two classes............

let Tennessee and Florida make the open rules.

Let Oklahoma and North Carolina make the limited rules.

Leave the tires and aero up to the Series/Promoter/track Owner................

DONE

:cool:

[loopedout]

Just read these on Crazy Boys rc thread, sound kinda like what is coming to fruition here.



2009 OUTDOOR DIRT OVAL RULES
1/8 late model
Dimensions/Weight:
Wheelbase maximum, 13.2, minimum 11
Maximum Track width 13
Maximum overall length, 28.7
Minimum Weight, 8lbs.

Chassis/Body:
Any 1/8 scale 4wd shaft drive (buggy type) chassis.
Chassis must be stock, OEM or aftermarket aluminum or alloy, with stock engine/suspension mounting locations.
Fuel tank maximum capacity of 175cc
Fuel tank must be in STOCK location.

LATE MODEL BODY
Body most be a molded late model
No side dams, rear spoiler can't be more than 3'' in length measured from deck , Side spoilers most stop at back of the c pillar and not past the top and back of rear spoiler by more than a 1/2'' with the bottom leading edge not leaving the body in the back
and the edge from the front of the side spoiler to the top most be a straight line

Engines:

ANY .21ci, to .28ci. please keep a $ 250.00 retail price on the motor new ( this is so any one can buy the same motor for 250 at the store ) There is a $250.00 motor claimer rule .
1) Any body in your main that finishes behind you is aloud to claim your motor at the end of the race day after that person is done racing . the money will be given to the staff off crazy boys raceway and at the finish of that persons day of racing he or she will be asked to remove the motor from the car ( that is motor and carb only, no exhaust ,no clutch , no fly wheel , motor and carb only )
2) If at that point the person will not give up the motor for $250.00 they will be disqualified and asked to leave they also will be ineligible to race that class for the remainder of the 1/8 late model season but may come back next year
3)Tthe person will not know there motor has been claimed until the end of the race day . the person claiming the motor will fill out a claimer sheet and hand it to the staff with the 250.00 in hand cash only before the motor can be claimed .

Carburetors MUST HAVE a return device (spring, rubber band) to close the carburetor in the event the linkage comes off
. Any exhaust providing it does not exceed track noise limitations. (Maximum 85db. Recommended).

TIRES
[SIZE=2]Must be these 1/8 tires on 1/8 wheels ( ofna part #82011,85021, 86052, 86053 ) LOSI SPEC TIRE AND 1/8 SCALE FOAMS

[Dlan44]

basically the same rules i posted previously with a few tweeks. Mostly wordsmithing, and a few clarifications.

[04Xterra]

Nice and simple. I like 'em!:thumbsup:

[plipitkc]

I'm game but don't necessarily think it will fly, but I'm a gluten for punishment though.

Mike and I talk for a while last night and I understand where he is coming from. I have reservations about whether the motors will keep up in the central US, but in a limited class or a spec class, the term does mean everyone is running about the same thing, at least motor wise or what is specified.

If we ran on pavement out here and if it was at my track, I would have power restrictions, and a limited class and work with the local sanctioning body (NSCS) to develop a limited class like the 360 class is in the sprint car arena. Both cars have the same configurations, etc with some of the limiting factors being engine displacement and fuel composition. If my track was dirt, I would still have a limited class.

The same would be said for the Limited L8M class. Engine limitations would be the three engines used out east, OS, NR, RB and apply the same box stock restrictions, with a 20% nitro content limit. Tech would be similar plus random fuel samples checked with a hydrometer and of the top three of the A-Main, for sure. This would allow the competitirs to run in multiple classes if they wanted too and still keep the outlaws alive.

This thought process also falls along the lines of a poll taken a short while back asking everyone about the classes they preferr to run. Unfortunately it turned into yakking about rules and the differences, etc and really didn't get my point across.

Phil

[Matt Murphy]

I am for chassis rules that contron the basic parameters of the car. Width, wheelbase, weight, buggy style chassis etc... But please lets keep hese cars basic. Exotic offset carbon fiber chassis and crazy one off parts cannot help us grow our sport. Our cars currently cost between $250 and $450 for a BRAND NEW rolling chassis. Telling someone that wants into the class that they need a crazy $100+ aftermarket chassis and a goody bag of other accessories can quickly turn someone away. I got into the class because of the $189 OFNA GTP DO Roller. Car ran well for under 200 bucks. Never would have ran the class if it wasnt that easy to get into. And I am a veteran racer. Not afraid of racing tricked out cars that do not resemble what comes in the kit.

I love these cars. They are new blood for the Dirt Oval genre. Fun and affordable. But I feel we need to help grow the sport, and things need to be somewhat basic. Out of the box cars should not be made obsolete by exotic aftermarket parts. We need the cars to be affordable, and more important fun for the new guy. It is fun to bring your new Late Model kit out for the first time, and run all day long and feel your car is comparable to everyone elses. That you just need more wheel time and to learn some tuning adjustments. Its not fun to come out and get lapped 10 times by a car that you, after your 3 months of researching the right vehicle online, can not identify because every part on the car is something "aftermarket" or "optimized" for dirt oval. Open our arms to newcomers. A few basic rules, and let each track/region/major race decide on body and tire rules. Make it so my California car can race at the chili bowl jr, the Late Model Nats, Big Bills, and the Horizon Shootout with only a mere tire swap and maybe a body, sidedam, or spoiler change.

Lets race basic cars with basic rules. Run a limited and open class at each race. I prefer open motor rules as I believe they cost less to race in. But I understand the limited class is great also, and I see no reason to eliminate it. I really dont care if we have a national rules package, because it seems everyone feels their rules are better than the other guys. Plan your big races. Set the dates early and have clearly written rules, and I will show up with a car meeting your specifications, because I simply wanna race.

Approved body list will make things easy also.

This is just my opinion on a toughly debated topic, sorry if I offended anyone, I did not mean to.

Thanks for listening, I am open for discussion on any topics I have brought up.

Matt "Showtime" Murphy


ps. I say we make minimum weight 9 pounds so nobody needs lightweight anything on their cars. Run Steel everywhere, adding a half pound of lead is much cheaper than removing a half pound with lightweight aftermarket parts.

[corcarbill]

Nice and simple. I like 'em!:thumbsup:

That's us, we live by the K.I.S.S. rule.:thumbsup:

:greenflag::whiteflag::checkeredflag:

[plipitkc]

If I understand what several are saying we need:

1. A qualified list of approved bodies
2. A minimum weight that is easy and cheap for everyone to meet
3. Maintain stock chassis mainly. But allow latitude for local desires.
4. Leave the tire rules to the local tracks and sanctioning bodies
5. Allow for open motors where possible but leave latitude for local restrictions based on track conditions etc
6. Post the rules for planned major races well in advance for racer preparation and don't change them late in the game.
7. Provide minimum and maximum dimensions for chassis (L xW x H) etc and leave the restrictions to the local tracks and sanctioning bodies.

And finally keep them stupid simple and remember these are toy cars and we aren't NASCAR.

Does that cover it?

Phil:greenflag:

[04Xterra]

Sounds like a winner Phil!

By the way, thanks for the Mugen, it is a blast!:thumbsup:

[Matt Murphy]

Sounds good. Lets all agree to leave it at that. No more year long discussions that solve nothing.

I dont see NSCS racer traveling to run foam tire races, or foam racers travelin to race loose dirt with rubber tires, so we dont need a national rulebook.

How about Just a basic, yet thorough rules and guidelines listing for upcoming races in a timely manner before your race, and we will all comply if we wanna race.


Matt

[loopedout]

Nah, thats way too reasonable:yellowflag:

[Matt Murphy]

ya, your probably right.

[plipitkc]

Donnie / Mike,

Any thoughts / suggestions?

Phil

[SoloGraphix]

Sounds good. Lets all agree to leave it at that. No more year long discussions that solve nothing.

I dont see NSCS racer traveling to run foam tire races, or foam racers travelin to race loose dirt with rubber tires, so we dont need a national rulebook.

How about Just a basic, yet thorough rules and guidelines listing for upcoming races in a timely manner before your race, and we will all comply if we wanna race.


Matt

I was going to say something similar to this thought months ago but felt it was not my place. I do however now own an 1/8 LM and ran my first race this past weekend, so I feel somewhat more tied to the discussion.

What would be nice and (imo) SHOULD be the objective of this rules discussion is that when tracks around the country have interest in creating an 1/8 LM class, they can come here and see, that X tracks are running the limited rules and Y tracks are running the Open rules, where does our track and drivers fit in and what can we model our racing after thats best for us.

When discussion started around here to run 1/8 LM I went looking for rules as a baseline, I printed out 5 pages of different ideas, specs, rules etc. and still had no idea of a general baseline. If however we wanted to start a nitro EDM class, I would know exactly were to look and where to begin to put a rules package together, because there is a national "baseline" to work from and we could adjust for our areas particular track.

[donnie victor]

Doc from the things that happened at my first race were interesting to say the least. I thought the less rules we have the better. Well that is not the case. We will have to decide on time limits for new innovations into the class. 8th scales are already changing design evolving from buggy based cars so fast that most cant keep up with all the innovation. I do not have any suggestions at this time. I think after my tour is over I should have a good idea of what needs to be decided on. Multiple classes for sure, atleast two. I think qualifying the cars one at a time to seperate the field will make races alot safer. IMO

[Dano628]

I agree with Donnie(I dont mean to sound like I told you so) I have said at least three times in this thread you need to have 2 classes limited and unlimited there are always people that want to push the envelope and have the latest and greatest things (nothing wrong with that) but it can get out of hand for the average racer

[04Xterra]

I too have stated the need for 2 classes. Give the Unlimited class the green light for a more "anything" goes type of attitude.

[speed4less]

If this is not fair to everyone we will never make it work. The three motors that are listed are the only motors approved at this time same for the bodies. If you want a motor or body to be approved someone needs to let me know.
http://www.ottsspeedshop.com/dlmra-2010rules.html

[loopedout]

dynamite platinum 21 please, I only plan on making a couple trips a year out that way to race but at least I would be able to come if that engine were legal

[speed4less]

Loop,
Is it a three port .21 under $200?

[93TA]

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=DYNP5221

[loopedout]

179 at Amain
174 at LA Parts House

159 at my LHS

[speed4less]

Loop,
Is it a three port?
The most important part is the three port motors are smooth and driveable. It's not about the money, you can buy a lot of motors for under $200. This is the spec's for a motor that can work at all tracks in any condition. We are trying to make a set of rules that will work everywhere. This is not about anyone, it's about everyone and untill people get that, it's not going to work. I have compromised in several areas from the rules we raced under in the past. We have done away with the side dam and allowed rubber tires to work with the mid-west (NSCS) and everyone else who has voiced their opinion. When are the ones who have not given any going to compromise? I think we are close. You guys said it wasn't fair to leave out the other motor manfactures. Well now I haven't. If they don't have a three port for that price I suggest they get busy. I for one do not want the manfactures to control my fate in this class. If you guys will use my rules I promise the manfactures will not control what I do. This class is doomed if we don't get it together. We had some problems at a race this weekend and I can remember a problem last year at a big race. Those are going to be more frequent if we don't work this out. If you guys can please think about our class we love and work this out with someone!
Sincerely,
Mike Ottinger

[Dano628]

Loop,
Is it a three port?
The most important part is the three port motors are smooth and driveable. It's not about the money, you can buy a lot of motors for under $200. This is the spec's for a motor that can work at all tracks in any condition. We are trying to make a set of rules that will work everywhere. This is not about anyone, it's about everyone and untill people get that, it's not going to work. I have compromised in several areas from the rules we raced under in the past. We have done away with the side dam and allowed rubber tires to work with the mid-west (NSCS) and everyone else who has voiced their opinion. When are the ones who have not given any going to compromise? I think we are close. You guys said it wasn't fair to leave out the other motor manfactures. Well now I haven't. If they don't have a three port for that price I suggest they get busy. I for one do not want the manfactures to control my fate in this class. If you guys will use my rules I promise the manfactures will not control what I do. This class is doomed if we don't get it together. We had some problems at a race this weekend and I can remember a problem last year at a big race. Those are going to be more frequent if we don't work this out. If you guys can please think about our class we love and work this out with someone!
Sincerely,
Mike Ottinger Mike a couple of weeks ago I would have argued any 5 port or less but after the problems that Donnie had this week Im feeling more like compromising after all If my club wants to run 5 port or less(which we do) we can .I think these are good rules and I would agree to them their is your limited rules now we need a set of unlimited rules

[loopedout]

Its the smoothest easy driving engine Ive owned. The thing is that saying 3 port engines are slower etc is a gross generalization. 3 port engines may be cheaper to manufacture but in reality the ports/timmg effect how the power is delivered (typically) but as the case with many engines its all about the design of the crank, the case, and the port timing in the sleeve. The Dynamite engine is cheap, smooth on the power delivery, and lasts a long time, that is why it has my vote.

If the three manufacturors you list would as much as help sponsor a dirt oval event as dynamite/Horizon does, I would be much more inclined to buy their products, I have yet to see as much as a banner from any of those companies at a dirt oval event, only offroad. Just like I have two cars, a Losi and an Ofna, both of which support dirt oval racing.
#1 Support the companies that are behind dirt oval first then the as a second option buy products from comapnies that could care less about what we do.

[Joey Hornick]

I agree that the Dynamite Platinum .21XP is very smooth and had great power for the price.

[speed4less]

Loop,
Have you ran that nine port on a hard packed dry slick track? I bet if you did you would want a three port. Have you ran that with eight to ten car main on a hard packed high bite clay track. If you did you had a lot of wrecks because the cars were to fast. You are what I'm talking about. Are you thinking of everyone and every situation? It don't sound like it. I can drive a .28 8 port mod too with a few very good racers a good track but that is far and few between. It's not about anyone it's about everyone.

Dano628,
This is the open class. The DODC 1/10 LM class is .12 motors only and we all run three or five port motors. Why can't the eight scale Late Models do the same? I'm starting to get blue in the face here! lol

[Joey Hornick]

Loop,
Have you ran that nine port on a hard packed dry slick track? I bet if you did you would want a three port. Have you ran that with eight to ten car main on a hard packed high bite clay track. If you did you had a lot of wrecks because the cars were to fast. You are what I'm talking about. Are you thinking of everyone and every situation? It don't sound like it. I can drive a .28 8 port mod too with a few very good racers a good track but that is far and few between. It's not about anyone it's about everyone.

We actually run these motors on various surfaces within the NSCS and we traditionally have 6-8 per heat race and in the mains there is 10 cars at one time. Keep in mind that we run on loose dirt tracks and you would think that there would be more wrecks due to the lack of high bite, however we all get around there with minimal issues. Now keep in mind that there are some of the drivers that are new to the class that if there isn't a Sportsman class they have to run as one group, however as a fellow driver we continue to let them know its not about power its about consistant laps and slower can be faster.

I for one have tried many different motors from .21 to .32 motors in the 1/8LMs and I perfer the Dynamite .21 because of how smooth it is.

[loopedout]

Loop,
Have you ran that nine port on a hard packed dry slick track? I bet if you did you would want a three port. Have you ran that with eight to ten car main on a hard packed high bite clay track. If you did you had a lot of wrecks because the cars were to fast. You are what I'm talking about. Are you thinking of everyone and every situation? It don't sound like it. I can drive a .28 8 port mod too with a few very good racers a good track but that is far and few between. It's not about anyone it's about everyone.

Dano628,
This is the open class. The DODC 1/10 LM class is .12 motors only and we all run three or five port motors. Why can't the eight scale Late Models do the same? I'm starting to get blue in the face here! lol


Yeah I have ran it on a very very slick hard packed sandy loam based crappy track and I won. It wont have the hp to keep up with high$ engines on a high bite foam track but I thought that is what all this engine restriction business is all about. I look at 1/8 scale off road, I think ROAR would get laughed out of the park if they made a 3 port engine rule. Seems they can draw more racers than I can count and what are the engine rules? hmmm a .21 in a buggy right? Maybe if we stick to 21's:thumbsup:. If you have guys that cant drive but have money, sell em that rossi 528, let em mod it, and sell them parts when they keep running into the wall with it. People learn. My first 1/8 late had an OS rg or vg whatever and it was a fine engine, but no where as smooth as the dynamite im running, I dont see the problem other than OMG IT HAS NINE PORTS HOLY **** BLAH BLAH. I would just personally like to go out east and race some but until some real sense is put into that engine rule I cant afford to buy two extra engines just to so I can drive 18hrs and race. Makes no sense. The only real way to choose engines were to have dyno results on all of them(on the same dyno) and actually put a hp limit on them in a scientific manner rather than making assumptions based on ports or price.

[Dano628]

Loop,
Have you ran that nine port on a hard packed dry slick track? I bet if you did you would want a three port. Have you ran that with eight to ten car main on a hard packed high bite clay track. If you did you had a lot of wrecks because the cars were to fast. You are what I'm talking about. Are you thinking of everyone and every situation? It don't sound like it. I can drive a .28 8 port mod too with a few very good racers a good track but that is far and few between. It's not about anyone it's about everyone.

Dano628,
This is the open class. The DODC 1/10 LM class is .12 motors only and we all run three or five port motors. Why can't the eight scale Late Models do the same? I'm starting to get blue in the face here! lol
Im sorry trying to compromise but if 1/10 late model you can run a 3 or 5 port any brand option why limited 1/8 scale to three choices only the reason my local track runs 5 ports or less you have a choice of any brand and these are competion engines that are fast and are made to higher standards then the 3 mentioned not trying to upset you I think yours rules are great just think we need 2 classes that all. If these become national rules and I want to race somewhere else Ill just need to have another engine because the track I run at allows 5 port or less and there are ton of good motors that fall into the guidelines

[plipitkc]

Give me a few days to come up with a spec for both classes and post it on here.

phil

[speed4less]

Either I can't reason with you guys or you guys can't comprehend what I'm trying to say. After the last two or three posts, you are making comments that don't even have anything to do with what I said.:confused: I'm not saying the motor you guys are talking about isn't good. Will it work everywhere? I'm telling you it will not. Will it work where you race? If you say it will then I guess it will. I know when you race in the loam the car is in a constant bog. I've raced on this kind of surface many times in a full sized Super Late Model. I know what you are talking about. A hard packed dry slick clay track is no where near the same thing. I'm trying to find the middle of the road it seems some people want it their way only.
I'm not saying three motors now. I'm saying any three port with a MSRP of $200 or less. More compromising on my part none on you guys.
We have two classes. They have the same rules. The drivers skill level is the difference. We don't need two sets of National rules. I think one of the BIG problems is people get on here and comment with out reading all the comments. I give! The DLMRA rules are for anyone to use who likes.

[loopedout]

Ive raced a very slick hard packed, blue groove, wet and fluffy, dried out and fluffy, all I change are the clutch springs and shoes, so that motor does work everywhere, much better than my previos engine which was a 7 port but due to a way different internal configuration was very hard to drive on all but a blue groove track because it wasnt smooth and really only had power up top.

My main point is that using a port number limitation is a borderline absurd way to limit power in the grand scheme of things. I realize what has led you to the three port conclusion but in reality that hypothesis is far from reality.
The number of ports has less to do with the hp of an engine than the carb/intake, case or transfer port design, crankshaft shaping and the relation of the crank to the case, and most important is the pipe. You can do a lot more say tweaking of an engine with more ports to manipulate the airflow through the sleeve to change the power curve. So cheap "3" port engines arent as powerful due to less attn paid to the crank, the transfer porting, intake, and it just plain costs less to cut three ports and is faster to machine due to it being less intricate.

When buying an engine I could care less about the number of ports. I found that the engine was cheap ie. under $200, had a very manageable smooth power delivery, and most important, it lasts a long time under the conditions we run them under.

[speed4less]

Have you noticed how all your comments are about what you can do or like. I'm glad you are good but we're not talking about you or any one person. We are talking the whole nation hence National rules. What are you willing compromise? I'm just like you that was what the comment about the .28 was about. Again I'm talking everyone........ Me compromising again. How about any .21 five port or less with a MSRP of $250? I'm compromised out.:D

[loopedout]

It's not just about me, that engine is in many many cars I have seen. I'm no better than anyone else, but I have ran several engines and that particular one is just very easy to drive and control which I feel does make for a better racing experience. Engine limitation should not be based on number of ports, price and actual horsepower would make more sense. It just ends up being micro management of racing. Granted this is all my opinion but a price limitation seems to be the best compromise. That keeps the cost down and give people an open choice as to what they can buy. The only place I can really see any benefit of a limited engine would be in a novice class.

[Oldschool]

The problem is,Mike, that you seem to want to limit the fast class and open the slow class! In your version the better drivers will be in the motor limited class and the .28 guys will be in the not so good drivers class. That is backward thinking and will never be adopted! The better drivers should be in the open class and the motor limit there should be .28. IMO

[speed4less]

Oldshool,
My local rules don't have anything to do with the DLMRA National rules.



My thinking is good close clean racing for everyone.

The point I don't get is the 1/10 LM DODC class is not an open motor rule. Why?

He is the deal the 2010 DLMRA rules are posted and I'm done compromising. If tracks want to use them good if not good.

Thanks for all the input guys.

http://www.ottsspeedshop.com/dlmra-2010rules.html

[sps3172]

Oldshool,

The point I don't get is the 1/10 LM DODC class is not an open motor rule. Why?



Here are the DODC engine rules covering BOTH 1/10 LM, EDM, etc....
It includes 1 LIMITED type class and one OPEN type class. It does not include 2 seperate 'limited' type classes with some attempt to seperate folks by skill level. Am I misreading something?


Nitro Class Rules
http://www.dirtoval.com/images/dotted600.gif



All classes: Maximum fuel tank size is 75cc. No stinger modifications and no pipes with adjustable stingers allowed.

Limited: O.S. Max 12TG Production motors only. Must be out of the box STOCK. No modifications allowed. Rotary or Slide carb version ok. Any glow plug may be used. Glow plug gasket/washers of any size are permitted but not required. Production headers and pipes only with max 6mm stinger opening.

Open: Any .12 cubic inch engine. Un-modified .15 Rtr engines may be used but must utilize stock pullstart or rotostart system.

[speed4less]

I would really like to make this work. What if the open is any .21 with a MSRP of $250 or less and the limited class is the three motor rule? The rest of the DLMRA rules are what is in black and white. If you get in the gray so be it. If something is going on in the gray area "we" don't like we fix it.

[Eugene Ryder]

I voted 2 classes a long time ago...

I finally bought and ran a 1/8LM and I still feel there needs to be two classes....

One class (Limited/NSCS type) with .21's or RTR .26's only, rubber tires only, 8,5 LBS, no side dam, stock chassis/shocks, stock 6 gear diffs, 3" rear spoiler, 150cc fuel tanks and only approved molded bodies.

The second class (Open type) would be .28's or less, foams or rubbers, 8 LBS, any chassis/shocks/shock towers, any diff or one way, 3" spoiler, side dam 5"X16" or less starting 3" behind front axle, 150cc fuel tanks and any approved molded bodies.

IMO this would keep it simple, easy to tech, easy to move up a class, and the guys wanting to keep costs down have somewhere to run, along with new racers. And you have a class for people wanting to buy chassis's, diff's, shocks/towers, and so on and so on......

And please understand I am not referring to the NSCS as being a limited class.....what works for them is "limiting" the diff's, tires and no side dam's because it's cheaper and it is what works in their region. BUT IT WILL ALSO WORK IN OTHER REGIONS...like NC, TN, Fl, IL. and anywhere else that has high bite clay tracks.

2 Classes would be awesome.....it would make it so no matter where you wanted to go race, all you had to do was take your car.....because there would be a class for you. Some area's will have more open cars than NSCS ones and other places will have more NSCS cars than open ones. But you will know what to expect.

OK, that is my $.02 for the day. Lets go racin' boys.

Later

[donnie victor]

I voted 2 classes a long time ago...

I finally bought and ran a 1/8LM and I still feel there needs to be two classes....

One class (Limited/NSCS type) with .21's or RTR .26's only, rubber tires only, 8,5 LBS, no side dam, stock chassis/shocks, stock 6 gear diffs, 3" rear spoiler, 150cc fuel tanks and only approved molded bodies.

The second class (Open type) would be .28's or less, foams or rubbers, 8 LBS, any chassis/shocks/shock towers, any diff or one way, 3" spoiler, side dam 5"X16" or less starting 3" behind front axle, 150cc fuel tanks and any approved molded bodies.

IMO this would keep it simple, easy to tech, easy to move up a class, and the guys wanting to keep costs down have somewhere to run, along with new racers. And you have a class for people wanting to buy chassis's, diff's, shocks/towers, and so on and so on......

And please understand I am not referring to the NSCS as being a limited class.....what works for them is "limiting" the diff's, tires and no side dam's because it's cheaper and it is what works in their region. BUT IT WILL ALSO WORK IN OTHER REGIONS...like NC, TN, Fl, IL. and anywhere else that has high bite clay tracks.

2 Classes would be awesome.....it would make it so no matter where you wanted to go race, all you had to do was take your car.....because there would be a class for you. Some area's will have more open cars than NSCS ones and other places will have more NSCS cars than open ones. But you will know what to expect.

OK, that is my $.02 for the day. Lets go racin' boys.

LaterNobody will agree to that, it is too simple. They need something to bicker about, or it aint racing.... LOL. Nice Job E. I could run a series with rules like that... LOL :thumbsup::greenflag:

[BigT]

Nobody will agree to that, it is too simple. They need something to bicker about, or aint racing.... LOL. Nice Job E. I could run a series with rules like that... LOL :thumbsup::greenflag:


I'll agree with it!!!!

[04Xterra]

I voted 2 classes a long time ago...

I finally bought and ran a 1/8LM and I still feel there needs to be two classes....

One class (Limited/NSCS type) with .21's or RTR .26's only, rubber tires only, 8,5 LBS, no side dam, stock chassis/shocks, stock 6 gear diffs, 3" rear spoiler, 150cc fuel tanks and only approved molded bodies.

The second class (Open type) would be .28's or less, foams or rubbers, 8 LBS, any chassis/shocks/shock towers, any diff or one way, 3" spoiler, side dam 5"X16" or less starting 3" behind front axle, 150cc fuel tanks and any approved molded bodies.

IMO this would keep it simple, easy to tech, easy to move up a class, and the guys wanting to keep costs down have somewhere to run, along with new racers. And you have a class for people wanting to buy chassis's, diff's, shocks/towers, and so on and so on......

And please understand I am not referring to the NSCS as being a limited class.....what works for them is "limiting" the diff's, tires and no side dam's because it's cheaper and it is what works in their region. BUT IT WILL ALSO WORK IN OTHER REGIONS...like NC, TN, Fl, IL. and anywhere else that has high bite clay tracks.

2 Classes would be awesome.....it would make it so no matter where you wanted to go race, all you had to do was take your car.....because there would be a class for you. Some area's will have more open cars than NSCS ones and other places will have more NSCS cars than open ones. But you will know what to expect.

OK, that is my $.02 for the day. Lets go racin' boys.

Later

This similar statement has been said since almost page one of this discussion and it keeps getting pushed aside, which baffles me. There seems to be too much time trying to meld the two forms of racing together (foam and rubber tire). Why? A set of foam tire guidelines, a set of rubber tire guidelines. End.Of.Story.:checkeredflag:

[loopedout]

sounds good to me, even though I dont like side dams lol

[Dano628]

I would really like to make this work. What if the open is any .21 with a MSRP of $250 or less and the limited class is the three motor rule? The rest of the DLMRA rules are what is in black and white. If you get in the gray so be it. If something is going on in the gray area "we" don't like we fix it.
I like it

[loopedout]

that would work too

[Eugene Ryder]

sounds good to me, even though I dont like side dams lol

Lets say you were looking into doing some traveling to Il or Tn and wanted to race 1/8th LM's. But you didn't have foams.....K so far? You are wondering if you "have to have" a side dam to run with the big dogs.....right?

K.....well, I went to TN last weekend for a ONS race. Fully prepared to run my FOAMS and SIDE DAM. Got there friday morning without my car being built or painted or anything, new engine and all. OK, I finally get to practice about 7-8 PM. I threw my car on the track without a side dam (simply didn't have time) and rubber tires (simply cause it came out of the box with em on) and the car was pretty hooked up....

OK, saturday morning, I am figuring I "need" a side dam so I put one on. Went back out to try my car again like that (still had rubber tires) and it was almost to stuck! Now what? No time to try foams this late in the game. So, I broke out my RC$Less Losi springs, made some changes with them, cranked down on some droop screws and waited for the 5 lap qualifier. Car was pretty good but thought I needed more gear.....wrong! I geared up one tooth for the first round......ran the car.....engine heated up, leaned out and flat out wouldn't pull the gear. Went back down that tooth, fattened up the engine and ran again. Still better but not great......I had to go and take most of the toe-in, OUT of the rear end to free the car up......After doing that, I was doing pretty good till the engine got lean again.....

Anyway.....what I am trying to paint a pic of is, you don't nessesarily need or "have to have" a side dam to be competitive. If I hadn't riveted my side dam on, I simply would have removed it instead of changing the toe on the rear of my car. And I didn't even get to the foam tires......

I think you can ask most anyone there......my car was turning great, wasn't loose, and had some really good lap times.

Could I have ran the car without the side dam and rubber tires and been competitive? Sure....no doubt.....Would the foams freed the car up any? I think so, IMO ya. Did I have time to try it? No.

So all you guys afraid to try or hate the way a side dam looks, don't put one on, but come race and see how it goes. The only way it will work is if everyone comes to the races and sees both sides of the story.....sitting behind the computer wont fix anything. And yes, I have run on the NSCS type tracks quit a bit.....I didn't run LM's back then but I know why the NSCS does what it does. I wouldn't WANNA run my side dam, foam tired car anywhere near Oklahoma/Texas. But if there was 2 classes, I would get another body (for non-side dam tracks) and different engine and I could race the NSCS just by adding a half pound and taking my one-way/torsen/smart diff out. No biggie.....

I see this, we have 13.5 sprint/mod sprint
we have limited .12TG nitro classes and open .12 nitro classes.
stock/mod
limited/open........what's the difference......1/8th LM are getting big enough to split em up. Way better than bickering about rules........

Would it be easier for a newbie to get into an OPEN car or Limited one?

Now, that is like $.23 worth but.......let's try it.

[loopedout]

I raced with side dams for 15 years and in my opinion it ruined the racing.
Its like the setup can be ignored alot when you run a sidedam. Not running one forces people to have a steeper learning curve on getting a car setup and learning how to drive. There are people who know how to setup a car and can run a side dam very effectively.
The LHS owner runs sidedams on nothing now and I can really see a difference in the racing. The cars arent as stuck but I feel it makes for better racing. I carry a sidedam in my race box and a set of 1/8 foams and all the necessesary things I need to adapt to most racing surfaces. Im not saying I wont run a side dam, I just like to pipe up and say I dont like em but I will bolt one on in a minute if the rules say you can have one and if I need one to be competitve.

[04Xterra]

One class (Limited/NSCS type) with .21's or RTR .26's only, rubber tires only, 8,5 LBS, no side dam, stock chassis/shocks, stock 6 gear diffs, 3" rear spoiler, 150cc fuel tanks and only approved molded bodies.

The second class (Open type) would be .28's or less, foams or rubbers, 8 LBS, any chassis/shocks/shock towers, any diff or one way, 3" spoiler, side dam 5"X16" or less starting 3" behind front axle, 150cc fuel tanks and any approved molded bodies.


I really can't stress how easy this class set up should be so I will just keep quoting the above section of Eugene's post until I feel everyone has gotten the point. :D

[BigT]

E. I think that was about 50cents worth, It would make things easier for all us new poeple getting into Dirtoval not having to go all out, we can build up over time depending which way I wanted go, in saying this THANKS. Its folks like you that are getting folks like me in to something good and if everyone could get there thoughts together the hobby would be or could excel and be better than ever.

Thats my .01 worth
Tom

[plipitkc]

Attached is the first draft of what we talked about and it is lengthly so don't fall asleep reading it. Also don't kill the messenger or me.

Thank you for this opportunity to post this combined effort.

Phil

[loopedout]

Phil, the Losi tire is the DLM tire part no Losa 17758, not the 17768B, thats the on road compound. I think new chassis designs should be subject to the 30 day rule as well. I still think the layout of those two classes will leave out the vast majority of people currently racing, on one end, majority doesnt run those 3 port engines, on the other end, most people arent going to want the extreme custom chassis. Just make a sportsman class and a pro class, same rules, keep all your body rules, stock buggy or manuf DO specific chassis configs and have a 21 motor limit at a hobby shop max pricce of 250 bucks or 200 whatever. leave it up to each track to determine if they want an "open" class where small groups will run the ultra high $ custom chassis and expensive motors. We need to embrace the basic structure that has built 1/8 do racing to the level its at and refine it a touch for a national set of rules if one is really actually needed. The more I do think about this, it may be good the way it is. Ive just pretty much said to heck with common rules, if I want to go to cs or wherever I would have to run that 3 engine deal, well Ill figure out someway to get a couple of those engines. NSCS does great with our rule package, I think by next season Donnie will have his ONS worked out where the people there are good to go with a solid set of rules and so on and so forth with other series wherever they are. What im finding is that there is already a common denomonator in place for all the different racing series. I can take my Losi or Ofna car and go anywhere, and if for whatever reason I was using an OS rg or one of those three engines, it looks like I could go anywhere in the US and race with just a tire/setup change. If we throw out the 3 engine rule and go with the 21 price capped rule then everyone should be able to go wherever and race with a tire setup change. Then voila we would have an actual national agreement on 1/8 lates.

[plipitkc]

Lloyd,

In the limited class the motors are restricted to any 3 port with a cost of $200. The three motors listed under the motors section are suggested or preferred only.

Thanks for the PN on the tires. I just copied from an earlie NSCS posting that must have had the wrong number. consider the change made.

[plipitkc]

Corrections made. New class names: PRO LIght, PRO. PN for Losi tires made.

Thanks

Can someone give me foam tire dimensions Diameter and width.

Phil

[Ovaloldtimer]

Why just rubber tire's in the limited class?
The west guys and the east guys will never agree on a national set of rules, except for body and chassis measurements, your rules already outlawed my car because it is carbon fiber, im a rookie and like to do mod's and hop up's sso should I be punished for that?
Hyperdrive said the were going to make carbon fiber conversions for cars so you just outlawed that too
Since I race in TN I bought one of the 3 engines, and have seen them win against other motors in the open class so theres nothing wrong with the 3 motors listed.
They keep saying they want to be able to run their big motors, but in the same sentence say that because of the track surface and tire rule they cant put all the power down, isnt that a waste of motor? in those conditions wouldnt a motor of less HP be the better option?
I say have 3 classes like Mike has put together, it takes big outta control motors and puts the race back in the hands of setup men and drivers, it also breaks up rookie's and veterans, and also gives a class for some offroaders and back yard bashers a place to run their cars, but if you raced around here you'd see what we see and there is no open drivers.
As far as national rules set the body and wing height, length, width, as as far as the cars must use buggy type drivetrain and if it fits under the body its legal.

[tmr22]

Why just rubber tire's in the limited class?
The west guys and the east guys will never agree on a national set of rules, except for body and chassis measurements, your rules already outlawed my car because it is carbon fiber, im a rookie and like to do mod's and hop up's sso should I be punished for that?
Hyperdrive said the were going to make carbon fiber conversions for cars so you just outlawed that too
Since I race in TN I bought one of the 3 engines, and have seen them win against other motors in the open class so theres nothing wrong with the 3 motors listed.
They keep saying they want to be able to run their big motors, but in the same sentence say that because of the track surface and tire rule they cant put all the power down, isnt that a waste of motor? in those conditions wouldnt a motor of less HP be the better option?
I say have 3 classes like Mike has put together, it takes big outta control motors and puts the race back in the hands of setup men and drivers, it also breaks up rookie's and veterans, and also gives a class for some offroaders and back yard bashers a place to run their cars, but if you raced around here you'd see what we see and there is no open drivers.
As far as national rules set the body and wing height, length, width, as as far as the cars must use buggy type drivetrain and if it fits under the body its legal.


Jamie, You are beating a dead horse with a stick. Mike has compromised with them on 4 occasions and they haven't compromised not one time. leave it alone. We will do our things here and they can do their things over there.

[plipitkc]

Jamie, It sounds like you like to spend money. Especially if you are running in the current sportsman class. It doesn't matter, most of the organizations are already working on next years rules and I doubt they will look anything like these anyway.

So tear it up guys, the second version is attached.

[JW8]

Well my question would be who "over here" has the authority to compromise anything in terms of rules. I would imagine anything talked about here would be nothing more then internet discussions. I know the people that run several series in this part of the country have not been posting anything. I would not get all wound up over peoples opinions. Each of us have our own ideas on what would be good. I think it has been said on many occasions that there maybe a need for two classes. Why not for simplicity take the NSCS style rules- engine, tire, body, chassis rules and make that a class. Then have the 3 engine unlimited car rules that many other racers have posted they want. You have two classes: Midwest Late Models and East Coast Late Models. Everyone is happy. You are not going to get people to run a class that they do not believe in. If you hold a National LM event. These two classes could be run at the same event and you crown two champs. Most other forms of dirt oval racing has multiple classes and cars. Cultivate from the grassroots up. You have to build the car counts to the point that more national events are possible and successful. The average racer which makes up the biggest part of the local racing scene does not travel much and will never race at a National event. Many of us on this website are the exception to the average racer and will travel to these events. But the backbone of RC racing is the weekly weekend racer. The rules still need to be such that these people race what brought them to the local track. Still think there is to much finger pointing and low blows in these discussions. Each group has had to defend itself when it really should not.

Jeff Werner

[plipitkc]

Agreed Jeff, there have been too much finger pointing and low blows and probably hurt feelings for a sound agreement to ever come out but what we come up with can be forwarded for review to those over the snctioning bodies and used, if for nothing else, food for thought as they develop next years rules and classes.

Thanks

Phil

[Oldschool]

It's not quite that simple, guys. The three motor guys do not represent the entire East Coast! There is quite a large faction that run big motors, side dams and foam tires, so there are actually three factions at play here! The larger tracks, around the country, like to run the extra power to pull taller gears so that they can take advantage of their larger tracks. We all want to go faster, and limiting with rules that slow us down only benefits the smaller tracks that are not well suited for 1/8scale anyway. There are several good running .28s that sell for less than $200. Just food for thought.

[plipitkc]

I quit. got to many thing in the fire to chase this. This is my third or fourth time to try for some type of a specification for the cars but no one seems to understand the word specification. Look it up. Good luck Donnie, Hoover, Rob, and others who regulate this class, you have a hard job with little pay and I don't envy you.

Someone make the rules and people will race by them.

Phil

[speed4less]

I know what you mean Phil. I tried to make rules that would work everywhere and everyone gets on here and tries to say what works best for them. That seems to be the problem. We are trying to come up with a National set of rules. That does mean something that works nationally don't it? Here is something that probably won't work best anywhere but could work everywhere. These are simple, clear and fair.
http://www.ottsspeedshop.com/dlmra-2010rules.html

[jaybird 52]

yes those rules look like they would work great ott :D:thumbsup::beer: and looks very close to same rules package that we will be running at crazy boys:checkeredflag: