Rules Amendment for 13.5 Brushless Class

[Bulldog_Wally14]

I'll get this up on the site later today:

As an alternative, the new Putnam Brushless 13.5 motor will also be allowed in the Brushless class. DO NOT be alarmed if you already have a Novak motor. There is NO ADVANTAGE to running the Putnam 13.5 over the Novak, so you do not have to run out and buy one if you don't want to.

Wally

[Dragula]

So why change it? If cost is the reason for the rule in the first place, why change it? One track I ran at only allowed green stock motors, and that was it. Why when there are others? Two simple reasons: Cost for the racers, and two, spot the cheaters real easy. With so many different stock motors, it was difficult to police all of them.

[racer34v]

I'm thinking since putnam is the title sponsor its only fair! - Take care of those that take care of you.....

[Bulldog_Wally14]

I'm thinking since putnam is the title sponsor its only fair! - Take care of those that take care of you.....
:thumbsup:

[pancartom]

I'll get this up on the site later today:

There is NO ADVANTAGE to running the Putnam 13.5 over the Novak

Wally

see my avitar....... :blackflag: :blackflag: :blackflag:

[Dragula]

:thumbsup:


Its a money thing. That's what I figured. I suppose more rule changes will be forth comming geared toward the sponsor correct? Seems those motors aren't allowed at any other events? How does this keep cost down and support the racer? It would look a whole lot better if you just allow all the 13.5 brushless motors in.....Also, why can't the 19T run against brushless 13.5? With so many classes, how does all this seperation really help.....

[mikenum8]

Wow sounds like Putnam is becoming like Custom Works at the Snowbirds. Only allowing there car in the class. I don't think it's fair to allow one manufacturer and not another. Either it's NOVAK only or it's all 13.5 motors. I had asked you about this before and you stated to me that it's easier for tech so only NOVAK 13.5 motors would be allowed. I'm glad Putnam stepped up and became the WDRA Main Sponsor. However it's not a fair deal for only his stuff to be allowed other than Novak. Just my .02 cents

[racer34v]

Before you guys get all unruly and jump the shark, Has anyone done any back to back testing with the 13.5 of Todd's and a Novak?

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Ok dude. I have no idea who you are or why you are so against this, but for someone who has been a member of this forum for 2 months...and has never entered a WDRA event.........well, let me just address this:

Its a money thing. That's what I figured. I suppose more rule changes will be forth comming geared toward the sponsor correct?

Putnam Propulsion has been with the WDRA longer than I have. Quite honestly, when the rules were drafted for this year, had I known that Todd was working on his own line of brushless motors, this would have been the rule from the beginning. The WDRA would not exist if it were not for our sponsors. We need to support them whenever we can.

I can assure you that I make ZERO dollars off of this. All of the money generated from raffles and my (small) cut of the entries goes to cover operating expenses, such as the website, me getting to the track (which if you don't think I deserve at least that for doing all of this, I encourage you to save your money and stay home when we come to town), etc. The rest all goes to the racers point fund for the end of the year. I think I paid for $7-800 worth of stuff to give away last year. Thats not counting donated stuff that that I gave out. I'm hoping to double that amount and give out cash this season. If you would like me to drop the sponsors and stiff everyone at the end of the year...let me know....I'm sure they will all be interested in having a talk with you.

This is all still very new to most of us. I understand that there is work going on by ROAR and others to write a specification for 13.5 (and 17.5) brushless motors, similar to the current standard for 19 and 27 turn stock motors. When this happens, I will review it and probably implement it for next year. Until then this is the rule.


Seems those motors aren't allowed at any other events? How does this keep cost down and support the racer? It would look a whole lot better if you just allow all the 13.5 brushless motors in.....

I'm not sure what other events you are talking about, but no one is twisting your arm to go out and buy one. In fact, I think that most of the other manufacturers will admit that their 13.5s are not quite up to speed with the Novak offering, but they are working on it....which is what scares me a little about opening it up until everyone optimizes their design within the rules that are being developed.

Allowing 2 types of motors will be much easier to tech than all of them. Again, I'm sure you will be just fine with the Novak if thats what you have.

Also, why can't the 19T run against brushless 13.5? With so many classes, how does all this seperation really help.....

There is already a 19 turn class. There have been 3 classes in the WDRA forever. I decided to add a brushless class this year, in an effort to be progressive from a technology stand point, and some of the racers requested it. Last year I tried to combine the 13.5s with the Small Block class because at the time the 13.5 was "supposed to be" equal to a stock motor. Well, that turned out to be a disaster. Some of those guys had bought systems, so we're going to run them. I too am concerned about class dilution, but we have to assure an even playing field for everyone.

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Before you guys get all unruly and jump the shark, Has anyone done any back to back testing with the 13.5 of Todd's and a Novak?

I'll leave that for Todd to address, but he tells me that they have been head to head in some sedan racing.

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Wow sounds like Putnam is becoming like Custom Works at the Snowbirds. Only allowing there car in the class. I don't think it's fair to allow one manufacturer and not another. Either it's NOVAK only or it's all 13.5 motors. I had asked you about this before and you stated to me that it's easier for tech so only NOVAK 13.5 motors would be allowed. I'm glad Putnam stepped up and became the WDRA Main Sponsor. However it's not a fair deal for only his stuff to be allowed other than Novak. Just my .02 cents

There is no requirement on chassis or any other equipment. Don't even try to spin it like that Mike!

In fact, Todd kinda tried to discourage me on this change, but I feel an obligation to support those companies that support the WDRA....all of the racers should too.

[JimmyD]

Wally you are doing a great job at running the WDRA... With all the latest and greatest stuff going on in our hobby, you do a fine job at trying to keep it fair... It is great to have a main sponsor like Todd Putnam to help with the costs of operating this series... I dont believe this motor thing is a big deal, not intended to be an advantage for anyone... If it turns out to be a problem Wally will probably fix it, he usually does... See you at the Hill, Saturday March 29th

Good Job Wally
Jim Decker

[Dragula]

Ok dude. I have no idea who you are or why you are so against this, but for someone who has been a member of this forum for 2 months...and has never entered a WDRA event.........well, let me just address this:



Putnam Propulsion has been with the WDRA longer than I have. Quite honestly, when the rules were drafted for this year, had I known that Todd was working on his own line of brushless motors, this would have been the rule from the beginning. The WDRA would not exist if it were not for our sponsors. We need to support them whenever we can.


Actually, without the racers, you won't have anything that needs sponsering....

[rj14]

Actually, without the racers, you won't have anything that needs sponsering....


dude, I might just have to drive up for the Radio Hill race just to see if you have the cojones to actually show up and race. then you might have something to talk about..........

this is not meant to be read as a threat, rather since Wally pointed out you are complaining a TON for someone who hasn't run the series.

I felt I had to edit this so someone doesn't get the wrong idea after re-reading it!

[jeff@vinyltrix]

I'll get this up on the site later today:

As an alternative, the new Putnam Brushless 13.5 motor will also be allowed in the Brushless class. DO NOT be alarmed if you already have a Novak motor. There is NO ADVANTAGE to running the Putnam 13.5 over the Novak, so you do not have to run out and buy one if you don't want to.

Wally


I dont see anywhere in this post where wally says only the putnam motor will be allowed!! the new Putnam Brushless 13.5 motor will also be allowed in the Brushless class.
THE KEY WORD IN THE SENTENCE ALSO BE ALLOWED allowed meaning both motors.
Wally 99.8% of us appreaciate everything you do and stepping up to keep the series going thanks!!

[Dragula]

Despite the opinions, I am not trying to turn this into a bashing match and take it to a personal level which some of you seem to be heading. My point is, if your changing the rules to allow one manufacturer in, all should be allowed in. Simple, or so I thought.

Rj14,

I love Radio Hill, ran there a couple of weeks ago, that track is still awesome, and the track prep is second to none. If you live close enough, why not ride up togather, and split the cost. I am having a little trouble fitting my junk into one of the classes, and cost wise, its a no win situation. To fit with current rules, either buy all new batteries, again, or new brushless system, neither of which seems cheap right now.

[rj14]

Despite the opinions, I am not trying to turn this into a bashing match and take it to a personal level which some of you seem to be heading. My point is, if your changing the rules to allow one manufacturer in, all should be allowed in. Simple, or so I thought.

Rj14,

I love Radio Hill, ran there a couple of weeks ago, that track is still awesome, and the track prep is second to none. If you live close enough, why not ride up togather, and split the cost. I am having a little trouble fitting my junk into one of the classes, and cost wise, its a no win situation. To fit with current rules, either buy all new batteries, again, or new brushless system, neither of which seems cheap right now.

I will let you know, I am planning on going to the CW series race in Cherryville, but due to $$$ reasons, Radio Hill may be the alternative.

[Bulldog_Wally14]

I am having a little trouble fitting my junk into one of the classes, and cost wise, its a no win situation. To fit with current rules, either buy all new batteries, again, or new brushless system, neither of which seems cheap right now.

I'd recommend that you start in the Small Block Class and see how it goes. If you have an EDM and a stock motor you are good to go. This is a very competitive class, despite being the "most entry level" class that we have...but the focus is more about driving ability than having the latest 4600s.

If it turns out that you TQ the Small Block class by 2 laps, you probably don't belong there.

[signman501]

Golly Wally I didn't mean to start all this when I made a joke to Todd about his new brushless motors. I would come up to the Hill if I wasn't comitted to the Cooper's race the next weekend.

[Dragula]

I'd recommend that you start in the Small Block Class and see how it goes. If you have an EDM and a stock motor you are good to go. This is a very competitive class, despite being the "most entry level" class that we have...but the focus is more about driving ability than having the latest 4600s.

If it turns out that you TQ the Small Block class by 2 laps, you probably don't belong there.

Got a claimer rule? I claim Roger Hills stock motor....

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Got a claimer rule? I claim Roger Hills stock motor....

Wow...you sure do have a negative attitude.

[Bulldog_Wally14]

And just so everyone knows, I will be watching to make sure neither motor has an advantage.....I can get lots of lead weights.

[Todd Putnam]

...Better peel decals, too. Putnam decals are worth 2 tenths... :thumbsup::checkeredflag:

[Dragula]

Wow...you sure do have a negative attitude.

Actually, it was meant to be funny. If you saw the junk I'm trying to race with, the fastest motor out there isn't going to help me much....Add Lipos to all classes, and I'll run what ever class you guys want.

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

First let me say that I applaud Todd's efforts in Sponsoring the WDRA this season. WE NEED support like this in so many ways....

However... I am a perspective 13.5 Class driver and have been watching both the WDRA rules and the PA Nitro tour rules and here is what I think...

I applaud the efforts to "regulate" the brushless 13.5 class by limiting it to Novak ONLY speed Controls and their 13.5 motors (At first). I think it evens them up more than just allowing "ANY" 13.5 system such as the Pa Nitro Tour...

BUT... The can of worms you open when allowing the Putnam Brushless motors is this:

"Why can't I run an Brand X 13.5, or a Brand Y 13.5, or a ???"

Do you see the conflict of interest? Again I am all for allowing your sponsor's motors to compete IF it doesn't create a rules conflict. But since you've opened the can of worms... IMHO you need to allow ALL 13.5 motors into the fold now... And you have lost the "cost control" of the class which is what I thought the goal was in the first place....(I could be wrong but that's what I thought.)

As for "IF" they are similar in performance... Well... To be quite honest WHY would someone spend more on a 13.5 motor if it didn't have better perceived performance??? From what I've seen the claimed benefits to a Putnam 13.5 motor are there and they are claiming to be better... Good selling point for sure....

Sorry... I honestly can't believe that a Novak EX 13.5 is competetive against a Putnam 13.5....(I don't need test results to know better...Putnam's stuff is GREAT)

I will wait for some real world "Test Results" on this but it definately puts some kinks in the hose for me.... If you allow the Putnam 13.5.... You must allow ALL 13.5 motors...

Just my .02... Not knocking Putnam, just think that the "intent" of this class has been lost by opening this can of worms.:yellowflag:

Sean

[terry14]

i think wally is doing the right thing. the class can only get stronger with a good healthy sponsor. if running todd's motors will help , then go for it. competition between manufacturers is natural and unavoidable with todays technology. however to say that a putnam product is an alternative might be stretching it. todds stuff is top notch , and i don't think his intentions are to build a motor EQUAL to a novak. that is just a bad business decision. putnam products have always been better than the rest , i doubt he has changed his ways. so call it what it really is COMPETITION WITH A CHOICE. don't back down wally, you're doing the right thing. if not now for the future.

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

Wally,

If you were to take all the thought processes that it took in creating the 13.5 class & it's rules and sum it up into a mission statement or goal... What would that statement be? I am curious as to what the "goal" is for this class..

ie. The "TG or Limited" class in nitro has a goal of keeping costs down and making the racing more about "setup and tires" than power...

what's your "goal" for the 13.5 class on the WDRA Series?

[Bulldog_Wally14]

The intent of the class (at least in my eyes) is not to be a "spec" class, but rather to keep up with current technology. We, as dirt oval racers, tend to get stuck in the "dark ages", so to speak when it comes to trying new things.

If guys are really looking for a "spec" class, say the word. I'll order a gross of Tamiya 540s, that will be handed out at the beginning of the day, and turned in at the end. We'll run Trinity SPEC batteries, and spec tires with the yellow stripe down the middle. I have no problem with that...it dosen't get much more affordable than that!

Also, I see this class being geared to the same type of racers that the Small Block class appeals to, purely due to the easy maintenance factor. My feeling is that the ultra competitive guys belong in Big Block & Modified....even though I've not offically limited the class. That is just my opinion.

Some people think that the brushless motors are the end-all be-all to make sure everyone has the same stuff. Nothing could be further from the truth, IMO. Same with LiPos. Guys are going to (and in many cases already have) figure out how to tweak these things to make them faster than the next guy. Some guy will start charging his LiPo at a rate higher than what is safe, just to make it go faster. It is a fact of life in racing. I'm willing to bet that some guys will go out and buy 5 of the same motor, check the inductance and keep the best one...the other 4 will get sold on ebay.

"BUT... The can of worms you open when allowing the Putnam Brushless motors is this:

"Why can't I run an Brand X 13.5, or a Brand Y 13.5, or a ???""

Because Wally said so. I hate to be like that, but that should be good enough.

Some of the most successful 1:1 tracks in the country are run like a dictatorship. Pete Bicknell or Brett Hearn do not have a say in the rules at their home tracks. If they want to race, they conform to the rules of the track, or they run somewhere else. Life is simple.

Remember, Novak has what, a 3 year head start on these brushless motors. Everyone has a lot of catching up to do...so don't get your panties in a bunch just yet. Again, if I see a big descrepancy, I will make the guys w/ the Putnam motors add weight. The playing field will be even.

[OTR SPEEDWAY]

Thanks for letting us in on what your thoughts of what this class is suppost to be. I didn't honestly know and you've shed some light... I do agree that you must run a track by the iron hand and what is said stands...

However... I guess what I had heard from so many drivers about this new class was that it would help to control costand would be fair. (If that is AT ALL possible.) For me it brought back my interest in Electric... The days of multiple motors, batteries, and all that made me switch to nitro... And from what I had see, heard, and talked to people about was encouragement enought to take another look... Now I am uncertain. It's like creating a series with the best of intentions and then when a sponsor comes along, then re-write one of the rules that had been thought long and hard about and received a lot of praise. (Now granted it is their perogative since they are the checkbook in a sense.) But I think it is just to the detriment to the "goal" of the class. (Again from what I had heard prior)

You mention adding weight to cars that are "putnam" powered that do well... How is that fair to a driver and to Todd's product??? His goal is to sell motors in this instance... If they do well then they will be restricted(and from what you've said, does that mean that just Putnam powerplants will be restricted or will that apply to Novak power as well???)

What if it's more driver ability, setup, practice, etc... than motor on a given raceday? you can measure weight with a scale, you can measure voltage with meter, how do you measure things such as driver ability, setup, practice, persistance, track conditions, and luck?

Please don't think I am a neysayer... I am trying to be constructive with all my thoughts... I guess I was so excited about running this class and now I am not so sure... And you have said it, "conform to the rules of the track, or they run somewhere else." So my choice is clear... But big picture thinking... HOW many guys are reading this and are NOT chiming in.. I've gotten SEVERAL PM's and E-mails supporting my thoughts... My concerns... I would take a serious look at what your changing... What else might change before March 29th? That is my next question...

Again.. Please don't think I'm trying to be negative. Just trying to be as constructive as possible....

[mikenum8]

There is no requirement on chassis or any other equipment. Don't even try to spin it like that Mike!

In fact, Todd kinda tried to discourage me on this change, but I feel an obligation to support those companies that support the WDRA....all of the racers should too.

I did not mean there was chassis rule. I was saying that is it similar to that race with the rule being ONLY Putnam 13.5 and NOVAK 13.5 are allowed. In the world today everyone tries not to discriminate. However this rule is doing just that. It's saying if your name is not Putnam, or Novak your not allowed in. Tech will really be so hard as it is even with just the novak motors. Look at the snowbirds for an example. There was lots of shady things going on. Even with Novak there it was Grey area that was allowed. I'm almost sure there will be the same kinda shady stuff going on here. Do you have a meter to test the motors? ROAR has come up with guide lines as to what the rotors and stuff are allowed to read. There approving more and more motors left and right. Temp approval for some as it stands now. I was one who was against brushless from the begining but it is a great class. But it should not be limited to 2 people, one cause there the title sponsor and the other cause they came out with it first. If you want to limit it. Then stick to the original rule of NOVAK only rules. That is at least tolerable. Those that went to the snowbirds dealt with that down there. I hate to refer to snowbirds but it's the largest race, yet usually has the least controversy over rules. WDRA never had to worry about these rules. The biggest controversy was always bodies and that's it. Now with technology going further forward there will be more and more. The nice thing about dirt racing is the track changes, meaning you need to change set up making it a chassis setup battle more than a motor battle 90% of the time.

Wally you do one awesome job. There is no question about that at all. The series as been great i believe since you took it over. I missed out last year do to the addition of a new driver to the team. We need to get him trained fast. LOL We did stop up to the summer nats. It was nice. I am planning on running the series again.

Please don't take this the wrong, just trying to be open minded and look at it from all points of views, racers and manufacturers. There are other manufacturers out there that I'm sure would like the motors to be run in the series.

Oh i have your door prizes. I'll bring them to Radio Hill for you.

[Harris03]

I formally Protest This rule change:thumbsdown:

The idea of this class was to introduce the new technology AND since this is a new technology in which there is no means to ensure that one brand 13.5 is built comparable to another brand 13.5...ONLY ONE BRAND 13.5 would be allowed. SIMPLE

The reason for this was simple too...to stop it from becoming a motor of the week deal.

You have broke the line by allowing one other "Blessed" motor. This is not right.

Either keep it one motor, or open it to all 13.5

A note to all Little O Racers...I will be concistant with what rules we have already discussed and agreed to. The Brushless motor allowed will still be restricted to Novak 13.5 and 17.5. Carry on as planned.

Enjoy

[rcer6x]

Because Wally said so. I hate to be like that, but that should be good enough.



:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[DIRTOVALDAVE]

Because Wally said so. I hate to be like that, but that should be good enough.



:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: DAVE LOUGHEAD

[DIRTOVALDAVE]

Wally If Your On The Computer Now Give Me A Shout 267-840-8204 Dave Loughead

[the Legend]

WALLY RULES!!:thumbsup:

[Todd Putnam]

For what it is worth:

When Wally mentioned adding our motors, he stated that if he had previous knowledge that we were working on brushless motors, they would have been included in his original draft - as he stated here. I also discouraged him from making the change, for the very reason we have witnessed by the postings on this thread.

For those who have spun this into a political conspiracy, you are wrong. If all the rules were changed to "Only Putnam Motors are legal in all classes" then I could agree with you. heh heh

Wally: I value the WDRA, your efforts and the racers who compete in the series. If I didn't, I certainly wouldn't have supported the series, races and racers for the past 7 years- to a degree that only Rupert, you and I will ever know.

If you want to pull our 13.5's from your rules for '08, you have my full support.

For you to have to come on here and defend yourself or any of your decisions, after all you have done for the WDRA, the racers and the tracks that we compete at, quite honestly, sickens me.

Here's my views from both sides of the fence:

From a personal standpoint: Paul, we've been friends since we were kids- what ever your decision is, know that I will support you in it. You have more on your plate with being a new Dad then to worry about this-

From a business standpoint, (to silence the conspiracy theorists): If anyone thinks that the profits from a dozen (maybe?) 13.5 brushless motors to me is worth Paul having to deal with any this, let me offer this: The money we are talking about wouldn't fill my gas tank. If anyone cares to discuss their views, I'd be interested in hearing from you personally. Feel free to email, PM me or call. 518-452-0422.


Oh, and Paul, I applaud you on the "Because Wally said so" statement. :thumbsup:

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Oh, and Paul, I applaud you on the "Because Wally said so" statement. :thumbsup:

That comes from many years spent at Albany Saratoga Speedway.

[shiboy]

That comes from many years spent at Albany Saratoga Speedway.
i might complain if i have to get "tickets" to buy food...!ha!

[JimmyD]

Wally for President....:thumbsup:

[sunfish112]

I have not but do plan on joining in a few WDRA events as they fit into my schedual. But I have to say just set the rules I will get possibly one of each motor and since I got both a terminator and a intimadator, I will just mix and match until I find the right weapon to run. Then the other will be back up or end up in my Stampede.

So Mr Wally stick to yur guns. And Mr Putnum I will be having my LHS get me the new motor. Is it sensored or sensorless?

[DL3]

U da man wally , keep up the great work u do ......

[Todd Putnam]

I have not but do plan on joining in a few WDRA events as they fit into my schedual. But I have to say just set the rules I will get possibly one of each motor and since I got both a terminator and a intimadator, I will just mix and match until I find the right weapon to run. Then the other will be back up or end up in my Stampede.

So Mr Wally stick to yur guns. And Mr Putnum I will be having my LHS get me the new motor. Is it sensored or sensorless?

Ours are sensored-

[rj14]

Ours are sensored-

or censored? :D

[teopro27]

Wally...(aka Bulldog) I don't plan on running brushless and I can't make all of the WDRA races....But why are you limiting the selection of 13.5 motors to Novak and Putnam? I don't really care it just seems funny not to allow other 13.5 motors.....like most tracks allow any 27t roar legal motor.....why is the WDRA different?......can I call you Bruce jr.?

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Just call me CJ.

[glgraphix]

...Better peel decals, too. Putnam decals are worth 2 tenths... :thumbsup::checkeredflag:
Dang, now I know why I cant seem to get up front. I paint Putnam into my cars :rolleyes:

[minchmotorsports]

Just call me CJ.

LOL

[Mr. T-4T]

I have read the whole thread and was just wondering who designed the Putnam Brushless Motor and Who is the Manufacturer? I think most stock or mod motors start out as basic motors from established manufactuers and then the people, such as Todd, Twek them to get better performance and add their own lable, just wondering if the Putnam Brushless is a Basic motor worked or modified by someone to enhance it's performance and then a lable added? it's not wrong if it's done as whatever rules apply, but I don't know if brushless has any whatever rules, or just what roar says about allowable motors.