Brushless 4300 class

[Harris03]

At the little O speedway we started allowing the Novak 4300 brushless motors. This is the motor that Roar is using as the SPEC Motor for many brushless races on carpet. Novak dubs this the "Stock Equivalent" Brushless motor. With the Lil O being so darn tiny they are working out pretty close...but honestly they have more power than a Brushed 27turn stock. On a bigger track they would be faster. Regardless, These brushless motors are AWESOME, for that matter any Brushless motor is AWESOME. I am not sure why we run brush motors any more at all. There are three easy steps to running brushless. 1 open box. 2 Install into car. 3 Never touch it again for the entire season. I ran a 4300 brushless all last season at the little O and at Joes Hobbies and the very same motor is going back into the car for this season. Not one single set of brushes...Not one single alignment job....No Comm cutting....No Nothing.

I would love to see Brushless Motors on the WDRA Tour. Anyone Else?

[creekside r/c]

I second that...and even say that open motor big block should also allow brushless.
1)easier maint....4 those of u who race with me no i wrench on 3 cars at the weekly races plus run my nitros on weekends
2)cost....i can run infinite times with a brushless with out brushes com cuts and withput having to buy 10+ motors a year(400dollars +)
3)longer run times....we can get 22minutes at our track with a 3800 battery with a ss 4300...and closer to 30min at lil o.
and everyone knows the more time u can squeeze out the longer the race will be run..example around 10 to 12 min for a 100 lap race at the lil o roughly if everyone plays nice...what about 200laps possible with a brushless this lets tires and fatigue come into play.ive run hour and ahalf mains in nitro and have been totally exausted physically and mentally.

[creekside r/c]

i might also add that someone just getting into the sport with the brushless it is a plus now that person doesnt have to worry about the motor and can worry about getting the car to handle better thus making for better more competitive racing all the way across the board..in order for this sport to show growth and to get more people involved things have to change with the rest of the world...like modifying rules for the well beingof the sport....it seems that now dirt oval is gaining more popularityand showing possitive growth .but with the tecnology being almost ignored its gonna stunt the growth. actually i can run a 1/8th scale buggy for a season for about the same price as a dirtoval electric and be competitive.ill even break it down.......procar roller 700-900dollars,motors and brushes 400,tires 300,batteries 400 -500...thats with no part breakage....nitro which is supposed to be so much more expensive 500-700 for a good kit, motors250-300 tires 200-300......with no part breakage and the arms runn 11.00 a set also i run a car that only costs 250 a pro kit......why would someone wanna run around in a circle?

[DoubleJ]

I agree with both of you. I have twinn 6 year old boys. 1 boy runs my brushless in his truck with no motor repairs ever and the other boy runs a stock brushed motor with lots of rebuilds.I think it would make it an aven playing field for all, you just have to keep the chasis tune. LETS GET A CLASS IN THE STOCK AND MOD CLASSES IN THTE WDRA SERIES THEN MAYBE I WOULD COME OUT TO SOME MORE OF THESE EVENTS.

[captaincupcake48]

I also agree with everything being said on this post. I would like to see brushless allowed in both stock and mod classes.

Bob/Captaincupcake48

[JimmyD]

Sounds like the crate motor deal to me...:confused: Takes the motor tuning out of stock racing... I could see them being used in the Mod Class but not in the stock... JMO

JimmyD

[creekside r/c]

if u think of it this way.....i go out and see a dirt oval race at a track i didnt no existed..the next week i go out and buy lets say a b4 3 or 4 battery packs a charger a controller find a local racer to build me a body and mount it remember now im new at this for arguments sake lets just say....i buy this motor esc combo a brushless now i dont need to break the wallet on batterys ,dont need to buy something called a com lathe i can go have fun and learn how to drive.......thats exactlly what people look for when they try something new...and that brushless ss 4300 is right at home in a stock race structure it has been proven...i think 3 or 4 guys ran them in the small block class at the little o last year correction 3 ran small block 1 ran big block stock and all 4 drivers had nothing but positives and it was the same down the street at joes and the occasional race at creekside...remember this is a little taste of"new technology"and as racing goes people dont want to embrace change...

[JimmyD]

Will a fresh stock brushed motor compete with a 4300 brushless system performance wise? I am not real familiar with the brushless stuff...

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Whats the difference between the 4300 and the 13.5? And what the heck is a sintered rotor?

[racer34v]

a sintered rotor will drop motor temsp about 30 degrees on the same gear stack, the ''rotor'' is the armature in a brushless motor

4300 is slightly behind a good 19t

a 13.5 can be beat by a good tuned stock motor


hope this helps,
alan

[Bulldog_Wally14]

a sintered rotor will drop motor temsp about 30 degrees on the same gear stack, the ''rotor'' is the armature in a brushless motor

4300 is slightly behind a good 19t

a 13.5 can be beat by a good tuned stock motor


hope this helps,
alan
Thanks for the info.
What is the actual physical difference in the rotors?

[racer34v]

the construction material/method of the magnet, hence the strength of the feild. on a brushless motor the magnet is on the armature, i will post a pic tonight of a brushless ''rotor''.

[dylan]

i seen brushless run in 4 cell against brushed motors. a brushed motor holds the track record in that class. the little 0 ran brushless and brushed in the same class and if anything the brushed motors were more consitant. i don't see an issue with allowing them in stock. i'm not worried about my brushed motors competing.

[Harris03]

Here are a few things that I can say about my experience running brushless 4300 last year against the stock guys ( I can also say that I noticed my fellow brushless racers had the same issues)

The Brushless 4300 turns more RPM than a stock motor, But has much less Torque. So what you gain in a few Revs you loose in grunt.

The Brushless motors are super efficient. Battery Runtime is no issue 20 minutes of runtime at least. Stick packs will get you nerf bar to nerf bar with High Dollar matched packs.

The brushless Motors Have NOOOOOOOO braking power or drag. (Bearings and the rotor generates much less windage. This made the car handle worse than the stock motors entering the corner. This is one of the bigger drawbacks to the brushless. As you HAVE to lift early entering a corner. Any ground you might have picked up from a few more RPMs down the straight just vanished from lifting. I saw many of the brushless guys Blowing the corners from where they would keep on the pedal too long to try to keep a position. Drag Braking Options are on the better ESCs but it takes a bit of time to get em dialed in.

"So if they suck in the Corner so much, why run the stupid thing??"

Maintenance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do not have to do a single solitary thing to these motors. You run it round after round, week after week and it doesn't fall off. No brushes, No Comm Lathe, No trickery, No swapping parts, No filing this and cranking that. They run AWESOME everytime.

For me this is the best thing. I run the computer, I answer all of Joel's Dumb ass questions, I find parts for people, help out guys with setup, handle any Tech Inspection concerns, basically listen to everyone whine about stupid stuff all night and oh yeah...Try to race once in a while too. I barely have time to grease my tires, never mind doing a motor change.....With a brushless I dont have any need to change motors.

Neither does anyone else running them, which means you have more time to work on shocks and making the car turn better.

You'll recoop the money you spend to buy a brushless just in not buying brushes.


Also I have no problem keeping stock brushed only. Allow then in MOD and thats were I'll race. But I do feel that the time for Brushless is Here and there is absolutely no reason not to use them.

[RCRACR20]

Heres a good reason not to run them....and Lipos for that matter....the small MFGs, (RIP, Whiplash, TQ Cells, Putnam Propulsion), the same guys that support the series (via door prizes and other forms of sponsorship), the same guys some of you race with (locally, occasionally due to difference in location) the same guys many of you go to looking for help in any shape or form. Going brushless (and going to Lipos) is gonna hurt these guys, perhaps to the point of closing up shop

[creekside r/c]

heres a silly question to ask urself what if dirt mandates crate motors in 358 class?

[creekside r/c]

u do have a valid point but i was looking at this as a purely maint. and makeing things easier for new comers to the sport u realize how many people stop racing because of cash flow, and next season they are replaced by a fraction of new racers..if u make it more accesable to novices = better turnout weekly=better turnout at bigger races =better racing period.i also think the lipo thing is a good deal for endurance races....but im not gonna build a car for my son then buy a good stock motor from one of the tuners u mentioned and turn him loose,because a motor only last so long...my motives are purely economic and maint. issues. i have other interests than r/c i have 2 great kids and my better half.

[Harris03]

heres a silly question to ask urself what if dirt mandates crate motors in 358 class?

Yep, that is a silly question. :confused:


Matt brings up a very valid point. A point that I knew someone was going to put out there sooner or later. I know that this is a very important thing that Wally is thinking over right now too. Everyone likes door prizes, Me too.

The RC biz has found home for many Niche companies that provide specialty parts and pro-quality components. These companies have done huge things to move RC Rcaing forward and without them we would be spending a vast amount more as we would be forced to by our pro-quality components from places like Trinity....Remember when matched packs of 1700s were $90+ when Trinity was the only company on the block?

The way I see it not everyone will drop everything and Go Brushless like a switch getting turned off. These companies will continue on for a long time yet and slowly, as things do evolve, so too will the products and services provided by the niche companies.

Change happens, Ye ole blacksmith wasn't happy when Henry Ford started selling Cars the common working man could afford, But they quickly learned that instead of making horse shoes they could sell everyone Tires, Gasoline and Oil. Service Stations didnt sprout up out the ground like spring flowers....They Used to be called "The Livery".

[jeff@vinyltrix]

so the only real good point to a brushless system is no maintance. run time doesnt matter
because races will still only be 4 or 5 min races. the newer cells can go alot longer then they ever have but the length of the race is still the same. I really dont see a point to buy brushless for oval racing with 4-5 min heats and mains. best place for a brushless system would be off road or road course which run the longer timed races.

[RCRACR20]

u do have a valid point but i was looking at this as a purely maint. and makeing things easier for new comers to the sport u realize how many people stop racing because of cash flow, and next season they are replaced by a fraction of new racers..if u make it more accesable to novices = better turnout weekly=better turnout at bigger races =better racing period.i also think the lipo thing is a good deal for endurance races....but im not gonna build a car for my son then buy a good stock motor from one of the tuners u mentioned and turn him loose,because a motor only last so long...my motives are purely economic and maint. issues. i have other interests than r/c i have 2 great kids and my better half.


but ask yourself, whats cheaper, a $225 (rough average) brushless system or buying a decent esc and stock motor. Yes, theres maintenance that needs to be done, and you know what...I have not known one RC racer to date who has told someone they wont help another out. Hell, at Walts old indoor track, and Im sure Solly remembers this vividly, we ran the entire season without even cutting the motors, just was no need to. Just clean the dirt out and keep running it.

Personally, I think the maintenence, the motor tuning, the chassis setup, is what makes racing RACING.

and Crate engines in small blocks, I guess thats alright, but in Big Blocks, not a good idea, in my opinion.


and do not read into this incorrectly, I am not saying Brushless systems are junk or anything. Just stating my thoughts and opinions.

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Personally, I think the maintenence, the motor tuning, the chassis setup, is what makes racing RACING.


I tend to agree with that statement.

As you may have guessed, I'm currently researching this topic. So far, I really like the concept and theory behind brushless racing, but things may not be as simple as they seem.

[racer34v]

A gtx is 150.00 and 2 or 3 good stock motors is 90.00

I think that the main argument here is for the guy that doesnt already have,

A lathe 100
Hood tools - 30
Brush tool - 30
Brush selection - 50

One less box to carry to the track... priceless

[Team GFRP]

I tend to agree with that statement.

As you may have guessed, I'm currently researching this topic. So far, I really like the concept and theory behind brushless racing, but things may not be as simple as they seem.


Paul get in touch with SonnyB on here he runs the BRL brushless racing league. He is very knowledgeable on the subject of brushless stuff.

[outlaw4life]

I know that where I race that brushless is becoming more popular at the track. A lot of people like the thought of not having to worry about having to change motors as the track gets faster to find more power. Being able to fix your car if its broke or just working on the cars set-up. Knowing that the motor end of the deal is already taken care of is a nice feeling at the track on race day. Buy saving money here they will find other areas to spend it, on batteries, tiers, or putting gas in the car to make it to the track. Like posted in another post on here not everyone will change at once. Its just a big help for the guy that likes to race who may not always have the money to buy new motors. No one likes to run in the back of the pack, we all like to know that we have a good chance of winning any race that we are in.

[creekside r/c]

great point outlaw couldnt of said it better myself.alot of guys around this area have just have gone absolutely nuts with the stuff they are running,the brushless isnt a beat all end all its just a tool some people would enjoy running to stay some what fast...in the past 4 years ive personally been on the bad end of down sizing...im being honest i went from 59k a year to less than half right now...Right now im off work all together,due to a gun shot suffered last june.When you arent able to buy things and arent getting things handed to you to run or dont have a semingly bottomless bank account ,you start looking at things a whole lot different.and i believe ss4300 systems are down to 170ish..now my motor bill will be higher than that at 40 bucks a wack..and i would also like to add instead of buying brushes motors and a new tool 4 my lathe ,i could be buying some tires or maybe make some more races..thats if i have a brushless in my car.

[shoemaker]

My own opinion is brushless is not only good for the new driver but is also good for many of us drivers that like to run for fun and still be somewhat competive. I have tried a 13.5 at Red Neck track and did win a heat race in the small block and I found the motor Very user freindly and very easy to drive coming out of the corners (On a loose track) I also like the idea of low maintaince. I do not and have never cut a stock motor com and I only change breshes when needed, and I know I will never win a "A" main doing that but I dont think my eyes are good enough and I know being retired I dont want to spend the amount to get to the front. But if the motors being equal and batteries not being such a premium I am sure I would more likly follow the WDRA series and run more big races. After racing for over 35 years it would be nice to be competive again. Why not 13.5 in small block and 4300 in the big block? I only paid $130 for the complete 13.5 set-up and I even used it in the 1/12 4 cell pan car class. It is smoooooooth.

[MWMOTORSPORTS21]

I don't know anyone in my racing area that owns or has tried a brushless system BUT I for one would be very willing to try one out. The concept of less work on power train and more time spent on setup and suspension sounds great to me. I don't ever want to bite the hand that feeds me (RIP Motorsports) but it sounds like a great concept I'd like to try.

I'd hate to be the one to invest in a system and show up at my local tracks having the only one and being told to "keep in your tool box". That would for sure be a waste financially for me since I don't "backyard bash" with anything. The brushless subject never seems to be of any interest in my region. No one else I come across in my travels seems to be interested in the least.

It is an avenue I would surely try somewhere down the road.

I have seen what the brushless systems do for the mini's. WHEW that's stoopid fast in something that small. Could be a ton of fun in modified EDM's I would assume.

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Ok, here's what I've decided:

My first decision is that I will not add a special class for brushless motors. As of now there is only a small amount of interest in them, and I do not wish to dilute the classes that we already have any further. So, the next question is, what about integrating brushless motors in the regular classes.

The research that I've done has brought some interesting things to my attention. Apparently, even brushless motors that are the same (manufacturer & part number), can vary significantly in their power bands. Since there is no way to tune these motors, the only way to possibly get the correct power band is to buy a different motor, and hope you get one as good as the other guy's.

Now I realize that there are many tracks that we race on where this may not make much difference…but there are others where it will.

This will pose a problem for the highly competitive Big Block classes (Stock & Modified). Having to go out and buy a new motor (and hope you get the right one) will not save you any money over brushed motors. Make no mistake about it, some guys will do this to get an edge.

As for the modified classes, there is also some question on the reliability of these motors…and…there is no qustion that brushed modifieds are more powerful.

It is my feeling that the drivers in the WDRA's Big Block Stock & Modified classes are not the people who would benefit from allowing brushless motors. These are the guys who have an established program, and consider tuning a motor as part of being competitive. I don't see these guys going out and dropping big dollars on a brushless system. I know that I could buy a lot of brushes for the cost of a brushless system.

I think that brushless motors are more geared towards the drivers in the Small Block division. These are the guys that are new and just learning or take a more laid back approach to racing. These are not the guys who are hitting the line every time, and could find a benefit with the perfect powerband. The Small Block drivers are the guys who could benefit more from working on driving and set ups than from working on motors.

All of that has led me to the decision that brushless "stock" motors will be integrated into the Small Block division on a trial basis. I am going to mandate the Novak 13.5 as the only legal brushless motor for the Small Block division. Of course brushed 27-turn stock motors will also be legal in Small Block.

The official 2007 WDRA rules will be posted soon, but this will be the only major change from 2006.

[Team GFRP]

you need to madate and only allow certain speed controllers. because there are some of the speed controllers that you can make a 13.5 stock motor run more like a 4300 motor.

Just thought i would give you a heads up.

[jeff@vinyltrix]

you need to madate and only allow certain speed controllers. because there are some of the speed controllers that you can make a 13.5 stock motor run more like a 4300 motor.

Just thought i would give you a heads up.

the way it looks and sounds brushless might be a less maintance but a major headache for a race director !!

[Harris03]

...... or take a more laid back approach to racing. These are not the guys who are hitting the line every time,


Sounds like me...Small Block here I come.:D

BTW Wally I really like the fact that you call a bunch of people to talk about this but never called me, The ONE guy who has actually run these motors for an entire season at two different dirt ovals. :confused:


I guess I shouldnt say that, Wally has been doing a good job organizing the WDRA Tours and even if you said NO BRUSHLESS PERIOD. I would still run small block this year anyway.

[Harris03]

the way it looks and sounds brushless might be a less maintance but a major headache for a race director !!

Jeff, Have you ever ran a brushless? Been to a DO race where someone was running one? Do you have a clue about what your talking about?

[jeff@vinyltrix]

Jeff, Have you ever ran a brushless? Been to a DO race where someone was running one? Do you have a clue about what your talking about?


do you have a clue what your babbling about? I see you didnt bother adding the quote i had in the rest of my post so you can "get a clue"

you need to madate and only allow certain speed controllers. because there are some of the speed controllers that you can make a 13.5 stock motor run more like a 4300 motor.

Just thought i would give you a heads up. have a clue now?

so again it looks and sounds that brushless might be less maintance but a major headache for a race director !!

[outlaw4life]

In my opinion its going to be hard to allow 1 use of a speedo over another brand. The reason people buy differant speedo's is because of the performance that the offer. It would be like telling people in the stock class that they have to run a low gread speedo. Something that won't handle anything much over a stock motor. People run speedo's such as Q1, Q2, V7.1, Novak GT7, Novak Cyclone, and so on. All of these speedo's all high powered speedo's. Like Bulldog_Wally14 said buying a brushless system is like buying a brushed motor. Some may be better than others and perform differantly. You talked about people having to buy a brushless motor until they find 1 that runs as good as they want. No differant than the man running the brushed motor, buy until they find 1 that runs the way they want. Its more like making it a money game. The 1 who has the money to spend will always be hard to beat. He is going to have the newer motors and batteries to stay out front. Its all about the money$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[Harris03]

Outlaw4life...There's a post with some reason behind it. Well put and I couldn't agree more.

Jeff....You never answered the questions put forth to you. Do you have any experience with these components to formulate your opinion? or are you just clueless?

Both Brushless motors and Brush motors are VERY inconsistant motor to motor. How many people buy one stock motor and run it every single race for a whole season? More like 6 motors to get 3 good ones.

Speed controls and radios make a monsterous difference. Like Outlaw4life said...If you limit the brushless to a specific ESC you should do the same to the Brushed motors.

I look at it this way, If you like brush motors, run them. If you like brushless motors it would be nice to have a place for them. If you dont like them, dont use them. No one has a gun to head.

[JimmyD]

I believe Racer57 was saying that some ESC's will make a brushless motor perform alot better than a stock motor giving the brushless a major advantage over my brushed motor which is not exactly a level playing field... I understand what Jeff is saying, it will probably make tech inspection a must, and a pain in the arse... JMO
I could always put in a 19 turn to keep up...LOL
JimmyD

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Steve, I think we talked about this back in December...or maybe I'm hallucinating!

Anyway, I'll do some more research on the speed control issue. Thanks for the heads up Dustin! If it comes down to having to mandate a "spec" brushless esc to go w/ the mandated "spec" brushless motor, I don't have a problem going that route. Like I said, this is a trial. I only expect a few guys to try it out, most likely those who already have them. If it turns out that the brushless deal is an unfair advantage, I'll have to impose some other sanctions, like added weight, etc. The thing that I DO NOT want to happen is making people feel like they "just have to have one" to be competitive. Racing is expensive enough as it is.

As for brushed and brushless motors having variations, yes that is true. The difference is that w/ brushed motors, you can actually tune them to get them going. This may be a daunting task to "newbies" and that is exactly why brushless motors may be appealing to that crowd.

[Harris03]

Wally..Back in december I asked you if you if had ever concidered brushless. You said no. Then I explained that we had great success with them last year.

We never took any time to discuss How would be a good way to integrate them into the tour. But whatever...It is just a side note.

If you dont feel comfortable adding them this year...Dont allow them. I know that brushless has moved into everyother type of RC racing with very good results and brought in new racers. Dirt Oval Racers just arent open to new things.

Im gonna sell my comm lathe and buy a 13.5.

[jeff@vinyltrix]

Outlaw4life...There's a post with some reason behind it. Well put and I couldn't agree more.

Jeff....You never answered the questions put forth to you. Do you have any experience with these components to formulate your opinion? or are you just clueless?

Both Brushless motors and Brush motors are VERY inconsistant motor to motor. How many people buy one stock motor and run it every single race for a whole season? More like 6 motors to get 3 good ones.

Speed controls and radios make a monsterous difference. Like Outlaw4life said...If you limit the brushless to a specific ESC you should do the same to the Brushed motors.

I look at it this way, If you like brush motors, run them. If you like brushless motors it would be nice to have a place for them. If you dont like them, dont use them. No one has a gun to head.

steve,
what is the difference if i have run one or if i have raced at a track that does run them answer yes..... am i argueing to run them or not to run them? BZZZZZZZZ answer NO because you ran 1 for a whole season does this make you the expert on the "brushless system we should all come to you for the correct answer?? just based on what people have posted already about the different varations with the different speed controls and motors would make it a headache and another thing for wally to have to deal with in the series.. this subject is about the wdra series correct and not a specific track correct? if a track allows them to run with brushed motor its up to the track owner. now you have a clue as to what i was saying. but next time i post an opinion on the topic i will consult you
with appears to be the"brushless system expert" because you ran 1 for a whole season.

[Bulldog_Wally14]

I'm fine with giving it a whirl this year.

I think that you are right in that dirtoval racers are very resistant to change...myself included. I hope that this will lead to some new racers....I guess we will see.

[shoemaker]

Lets pick a complete system such as Novak and mandate only one controller and motor for the firt year. Just like some of the real race tracks mandate tire rules. Seems easy to tech one system instead of guessing what controller to purchase etc. I am sure Novak would be glad to help with sponsership for WDRA.

[creekside r/c]

well jeff once again u got it all figured out in your narrow mind...

[creekside r/c]

hey jeff u forgot me 2
i ran one at steves joes and creekside also oh and i ran one offroad also ran a 4300 d/o a 5.5velocity d/o and offroad so when u pull ur head from the deep hole from ur backside maybe u will c people are trying to help others progress.

[creekside r/c]

u wanna no what impresses me 2yrs ago me and my brother went to the billy leader race at walts.There we say a young kid running a plexiglas b4.its thinking a little outside of the box that pushes the hobby to the next level not running cars with 95% of the components designed 10 or so years ago,as of late the only people really working to get a next generation car out are customworks and tlr with their nitro sprint car all 4 corners are b4...this market is so stale right now and it needs a breath of fresh air...and jeff i really dont take u serious and i no u come on here to add ur own brand of fuel to the fire.

[creekside r/c]

RUNNING 13.5 b-less in smallblock=a big thanks to paul(priceless)
JEFFS comments=nothing(seeing they arent based on anything valid)

[jeff@vinyltrix]

u wanna no what impresses me 2yrs ago me and my brother went to the billy leader race at walts.There we say a young kid running a plexiglas b4.its thinking a little outside of the box that pushes the hobby to the next level not running cars with 95% of the components designed 10 or so years ago,as of late the only people really working to get a next generation car out are customworks and tlr with their nitro sprint car all 4 corners are b4...this market is so stale right now and it needs a breath of fresh air...and jeff i really dont take u serious and i no u come on here to add ur own brand of fuel to the fire.


what am i adding to what fire ???????????????????? where have i argued AGAINST useing them in any class in the wdra or ANYWHERE for that matter?? where am i stop progress??? when you get off your little yellow school bus and actually learn to read what i have posted maybe you would actually comprehend what i said. do i need to quote if for you. and before it is asked again yes i have ran against brushless systems no i have nothing against them ..

my 1st comment
so the only real good point to a brushless system is no maintance. run time doesnt matter
because races will still only be 4 or 5 min races. the newer cells can go alot longer then they ever have but the length of the race is still the same. I really dont see a point to buy brushless for oval racing with 4-5 min heats and mains. best place for a brushless system would be off road or road course which run the longer timed races.

comment #2
the way it looks and sounds brushless might be a less maintance but a major headache for a race director !!

to put in to little words for you to understand if there are so many varitions of esc and brushless motors to use it would cause more problems and headache teching to make sure the people that run brushless in the series are all running 1 mandated esc and motor. do ya get it now ??? that doesnt mean they shouldnt be allowed, that doesnt mean they are not equal or unequal to a brushed motor and it doesnt mean they are not the future of r/c racing.
maybe before anyone post their opinion we should clear it with both of you to make sure its politicaly correct !!

[creekside r/c]

1) baseing ur opinion u havent tried or have no understanding of.
2) true brushless is agood tool
3)true u can tune differnt things better with the esc.but we can do that with brushed motors thats why u read the specs
4)biased opinions such as haveing a motor deal and not trying something different =adding fuel to the fire, means a opinion not backed up by any facts! equals the truth
have a nice day:)

[creekside r/c]

1) baseing ur opinion u havent tried or have no understanding of.
2) true brushless is agood tool
3)true u can tune differnt things better with the esc.but we can do that with brushed motors thats why u read the specs
4)biased opinions such as haveing a motor deal and not trying something different =adding fuel to the fire, means a opinion not backed up by any facts! equals the truth
have a nice day:)

[jeff@vinyltrix]

1) baseing ur opinion u havent tried or have no understanding of. you should get the facts right i have had 1 in the past liked it alot.
2) true brushless is agood tool did i say it wasnt?
3)true u can tune differnt things better with the esc.but we can do that with brushed motors thats why u read the specs
4)biased opinions such as haveing a motor deal and not trying something different =adding fuel to the fire, means a opinion not backed up by any facts! equals the truth
have a nice day:)

you should get the facts straight before commenting "grasshopper"
the only fire i see getting fuel is the 1 you keep trying to ignite!

[solly]

http://home.twcny.rr.com/solly/fire.gif

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Enough bickering.