Interested in what you all think.

[RCDriverER]

So I was talking a while back with Daryl from Factory Works and I've had the same conversasion with other manfacturers that make DO stuff. The problem a lot of these guys deal with is that there isn't one set of rules so its hard to make the best products for everyone. What does everyone think about creating some sort of board to establish ONE set of rules for DO. I know ROAR used to sanction DO but they've all but completely written us off and maybe we're not even worse for it. Either way, I think its about time we reorganized and came up with a single playing field for everyone. What do you guys think?

[TQT2]

Erich, this is in no way sarcastic.....but I would like to wish you all the luck in the world. RC racers are a fickle group of people who don't like rules if it doesn't help their individual self.

Sorry but I see it everytime I travel to another track.

[twisted]

i think the manufactures are using that as an excuse.just take a look at what every place is running. its a left side car,foam or rubber tires,mid or rear engine, etcand make stuff that works!! .ive seen old grafite cars, new b4, all stock ,run as edms. stock truck,modded lto trucks etc.
what the peoblem is imo is the manufactures need to step up to the plate and make a rolling chassis kit. thumbs up for cw for doing so. more kits like these is the future,its to expensive for some to build up a car from a conversion.
i dont think we need a goverend saction or a rule book for d.o.each track is pretty in sink with one another as far as that goes.

[g_rod22x]

nonsense.
I took my car off the track from Fountain, Walts, The lil O, Finger Lakes, Chicos...in fact any WDRA event. didnt change a thing and met every rule 700 miles away in Indiana. the rules from the open wheel race are the standard. PERIOD.

[corcarbill]

I've been in this hobby since 1985 and just the last year and a half I've been DO racin'. I'd have to agree that the DO racer's and mfg could all benefit from a standard set of rules. Just last year I went to The DO Champs at Coopers and had to cut up my new NDRB body to pass tech.

Like TQ said about all the different tracks with different rules, if you travel you need to have 8 types of cars to cover all the rules. The only class that I've seen that has the same rules is the sprint cars. Jerry Flynn brought that to my attention about a month ago when he said, You can run Sprints anywere in the US, not EDM's or Latemodel's.

I'll help in any way I can to come up with a set of rules and possibly a National Organization to over see everything.

I like goin' fast and turnin' left.

Just my .02

[solly]

nonsense.
I took my car off the track from Fountain, Walts, The lil O, Finger Lakes, Chicos...in fact any WDRA event. didnt change a thing and met every rule 700 miles away in Indiana. the rules from the open wheel race are the standard. PERIOD.

yeah, what he said

[twisted]

from what i understand coopers had a rule about the side fins on the bodies. you didnt have to cut them off,just fold them up.

i still think a governd rule book is not a good idea. this was all talked about before in a thread titled "what can roar do for dirt oval"

im not against rules but like g rod said all the rules are pretty close to one another. so you had to trim a few peices of plastic on your car. wow.

[rcer6x]

I agree with G_Rod 100% those rules are fine the way they are.

[kipp]

i agree with g rod22x . as far as dirt modifieds (edms), the rules used at the u.s. open wheel championship race, the wdra and the dodc nitro tour seem like a good place to start. we had to do a little trimming on the bodies here and there but it was no big deal. i had to cut the wings off the front of my doors and lower the back of my body down to pass tech. my only gripe was that if i had to cut my body why were some guys allowed to run with no hood. im not picking on anybody just stating a fact. a edm body with a flat inner panel with no hood just plain looks stupid and it has to be a aero advantage or they would not have been racing them that way. as far as getting a national set of rules established, that would be a little tough since there is not a national sanctioning body yet.

[the Legend]

G-Rod and Rcer6x are my heroes.

[rcer6x]

Kippy send me the peoples names that were hoodless in a PM. This really seemed to bother you. I just want to know.

Thanks
Terry

[g_rod22x]

Hood Gestapo?

[DrOlds]

We are most definatly far better off having nothing to do with ROAR! There are a lot of regional differences in dirt oval(clay foam tire tracks,dirt rubber tire tracks),differences in the type of cars that are popular,and of course the two different styles of sprint cars.I don't think it can't be done,and I'm not sure if it would be good or bad.I would like to see more series like the nitro tour,or an expansion of it to include more cars.I think dirt oval racers have gotten rather used to doing things their own way and would just ignore any structure that didn't suit them.I will speak for myself here,but I don't think I'm alone.Dirt oval racers are cut from a different cloth than most on-road,off-road,and oval racers.We actually make our own cars,extensively modify existing ones to suit our purpose,and enjoy it.It's the norm for us and not the exception,but it is extremely rare to see any on-road or off-road car with anything but factory parts/hop-ups of any significance on it.That's partly because there is less need,and partly because it wouldn't be roar legal,but I think largely because they aren't the type that want to.Dirt oval is growing,and I would like to think that the lack of an overly rigid structure has something to do with it.ROAR can't be used as a model for anything(its a swear word at our track!).Just remember this-rules always drive the cost of racing up,and as the cost goes up-the head count goes down,and that's not good for anybody.

[rythemchaos04]

For the most part the different tracks I have raced at have a very good guideline for almost all rules. I agree with few of your posts about "HOODS-CARS TO TALL-DOOR PANELS TO FAR FORWARD" but most of all I agree about keeping ROAR away due to costs and interests. I think every track should follow a guide line set forth by DODC because this is where most DO racers go to for info and have a good idea where to start for "guide lines". Most DO racers travel to other tracks and are pretty close in the rules mainly in part to we all he one another out if we have questions. as far as the different types of cars or scratch built cars I say what ever works "AS LONG AS IT NOT A OUTCAST FROM WHAT A CAR IS SUPPOSED TO BE"! If your running a tenth scale car it has to be within tenth scale guide lines. So on and so forth.... We use rules at our local track that are just those set forth by DODC. I also believe there should be some sort of organization in having more NITRO TOUR type's of events but for ELECTRIC RACING. All in all we are an awesome group of people in our own right so a little tweaking from track to track is good in my opinion......

[twisted]

So I was talking a while back with Daryl from Factory Works and I've had the same conversasion with other manfacturers that make DO stuff. The problem a lot of these guys deal with is that there isn't one set of rules so its hard to make the best products for everyone.

this i dont understand, what rules are needed to make dirt oval parts?

[kipp]

Kippy send me the peoples names that were hoodless in a PM. This really seemed to bother you. I just want to know.

Thanks
Terry
i guess i have a hood fetish or something. nothing in the rules about hoods, my bad, i will shut up now!!!

Eastern Dirt Modifieds (EDM): Weight minimum is 50 ounces in all EDM classes. Maximum Overall Length is 22". Maximum track width is 9.5". Minimum roof height is 5.5",(at highest point not including spoiler). Maximum Height of body at highest point at ride height is 7.5". A 1/2" spoiler is allowed on Roof but is included in 7.5" max height restriction. Rear spoiler chord maximum is 3". No front wings allowed. Modified bodies must leave front tires completely exposed and the rear tires at least 1/3 exposed. No wheel cutouts are allowed on the horizontal plane of the deck area of modified bodies. Modified nerf bars and rear bumpers are optional. Maximum front bumper width is 5", must be mounted flat and may not be angled up to act as a Wing. An additional front body panel is allowed on the front of the car but may not extend past the bumper and may not be wider than 4.5". Maximum Side or Sail Panel length is 17" and no part of the side or sail panels can extend in front of the front axle. No additional lips or flaps are allowed with the exception of a 1/4" bend at top and bottom of Side and Sail panel no more than 45 degrees.

[bumps and jumps rc]

RCDriverER - I don't think anyone around here runs the same rules - it's a problem in my eyes but after being chastised the last time all I can say is good luck. The only thing I would add is that it needs to be a group of people and set up as a sanctioning body which in my definition is a group of people making rules for the good of everyone. This way you don't have to worry about peoples individual ego's. Certainly roar is not a good model to follow. In my head I think it would be best to ask the manufacturers all kick in $ to offset the costs - that way the organization can run without need for money from the racers.Which is about the only thing all DO racers will agree upon LOL :)

[Bulldog_Wally14]

www.rochesterrc.com/wdra (http://www.rochesterrc.com/wdra)

click on "rules"...

These are modeled after the Open Wheel race, but in some cases a little simpler. There were quite a few guys at the Summernationals who had to lower their bodies in the back to fall w/in the rules. Thats just guys trying to get as much advantage as they can. The height rule is 7.5", and I gave a 1/4" tolerance, which some really needed, LOL!!

What is needed is to enforce the rules that we have, so things don't get out of hand. Most places have the same rules for sprints and EDMs. The biggest thing that varies from track to track is tire rules (just like the 1:1 cars). Much of the tire deal really depends on what works better at each individual track, wether it be foams, rubber or spikes.

If you are talking to Daryl Lane, my guess is that you are talking about latemodel bodies on TCs. In my opinion, rules for this class should mainly consist of length, width, height, spoiler length, and side board dimensions. You have to keep it simple in order for it to work.

Like George said...he moved 800 miles from home and was legal without changing a thing! That is pretty cool if you ask me.

[signman501]

Dosen't DODC have a set of rules the are using now for their Nitro Circuit? And i'm sure there are rules for other organizations. As long as they are fairly even there is not much problems here. I like what Bumps & Jumps said about a sanctioning body, but this is a paid organization. Isn't that is what ROAR is, right.
I just seem to think that most local tracks tend to let there guys run what they got rather than pushing the RULES at home. That's why when the Tour comes to the local track, some of the regulars have trouble with the rules. At least that is what I see. After racing on a national level with NHRA for 30 yrs., I see some of the same problems with the rules. The travelers just need to know what is required before the hit the road.
You just need to get the rules out to the general racers as not everyone spends a lot of time on the computer like some of us.

[apurplez28]

Some of you must not of been paying attention to some of the larger posts lately. Yes. DODC has its own set of rules and they are crucified daily on this board. You can go back to the days of arguing his width rule on sprint cars, his original intention of a 3 port motor rule, muffler outlets , tire types at certain tracks(something each track controls) and most recently the length of races and the size of fuel tanks!


So yes there is a effort for a unified rule system but the end of the battle is not to be seen soon.


Chris Osbrink

[Doug Carter]

I have been harping on a need for a national set of rules for years. I would back any movement 100%, be it from a new nationally contributed organization or from DODC. I think it is necessary to build the sport further. For anyone against a rule book, all you need to do is look to the Nitro Tour to see what class structure has done for gas dirt oval racing.

I do also agree that this is one of the most fickle and disagreeable groups I have ever seen in any form of racing. You will make a lot of people really disgruntled with a "rule book" but if there is to be more growth and exposure, it will be necessary.

Take this word of advice, though. Along the way, you will be confronted by every argument imaginable and many inconceivable. Make a plan before you begin, stick to the goals, and don't be swayed by everyone's opinion. Craig can tell you first-hand, that it can become enormously difficult to keep plodding along when the screams from the peanut gallery get to be piercing. One look at the strength of the DODC Nitro Tour and the level of competition at the recent Sprint Nationals, and you can see that Craig's efforts are not only worth it, but immeasurably appreciated.

[Brad Ferks]

As a group we can't even seem to decide on what classes we want, much less national rules for all of them. Every region seems to think a different class should be the "premiere" class. Out east everyone loves their EDM's the southwest is BIG (read as off road truck based) Sprint cars, In other areas there is a pull for Late Models. Despite this at many tracks the largest class will be the trucks. (Hmmm a class you can buy a kit for less than two arms and a leg and off the shelf be close to the rest of the competition with.. go figure) Probably the class that has the closest spread across the country right now are the nitro sprinters, and then the whole "how wide" thing comes into play just because a large group can't agree on the standard because there haven't been clear national rules.... which spawned the whole width problem in the first place. Kind of a circular argument right now with no clear end in sight until someone gives us a clear reason why we need/want a single unifying sanctioning body.

Far be it from me to be a nay-sayer, as I want dirt oval to grow as badly as anyone, but I don't see it happening. The few big events that are their own entities (The Open Wheel or the Big G.O. for example) succeed in getting everyone on the same page because if you want to race, they have stated rules, and if you don't comply you wont be allowed to run. We can all do our homework and if it is important enough that we are going to travel 1/2 way across the country to run somewhere, you find out BEFORE you go what you need to do to comply with that races rules. I don't see how a sanctioning body changes that.

Brad F

[David Butts]

So I was talking a while back with Daryl from Factory Works and I've had the same conversasion with other manfacturers that make DO stuff. The problem a lot of these guys deal with is that there isn't one set of rules so its hard to make the best products for everyone. What does everyone think about creating some sort of board to establish ONE set of rules for DO. I know ROAR used to sanction DO but they've all but completely written us off and maybe we're not even worse for it. Either way, I think its about time we reorganized and came up with a single playing field for everyone. What do you guys think?


Let me start off by saying this, Erich, You will never be allowed to use my bathroom at da'Birds again. P U!

Rules for dirt oval cars will always be hard to enforce since there are so many types of cars run at so many different types of tracks both r/c and fullsize. What is needed is a dimensional guideline for all of the classes and some sort of agreeable body rules since what is run in Pennsylvania may not at all look like or appear to be the same as in New York.

I live down here in Florida(where r/c dirt oval is once again gaining in popularity:rolleyes: ) and I have never seen a real EDM. Therefore I have no way of knowing what is and what is not an actual EDM style car or what the dimensions should be. Now dont get me wrong I 'm aware of the dimensions as they have been used since the middle eighties when dirt oval was in it's infancy and I have run alot of open wheel modifieds or mudbusses as we used to call them.

A box needs to be devised, Not an actual box but a set of dimensions where as overall, length, width and height are set with no deviation or plusses or minuses are allowed.

Then each class needs to be measured within that set of dimensions but altered for each individual class. An EDM can be 22" overall length but a sprint car would look silly at the dimension. Got it?

A 2wd latemodel or wedge as they used to be called can also be 22" max length but the new breed of touring based latemodels look like battleships if allowed to go that long. There has to be tweaks but at least for regional or natioanal events racer"X" has to know that when he gets to a track that his stuff will be legal. Tire rules notwithstanding.

I'm all about the rules and I've seen them stretched, Mismeasured, Misunderstood and just plain out ignored at some tracks based on "It's what we run here" and that can be fine too as long as it's the same way for everyone. When racetrack owners or promoters starts letting their buddies or anyone else run something that isn't allowed for anyone else, Thats when the proverbial plug gets pulled on that sinking ship of a racetrack. Glub glub glub. remember a piece of frozen water sank the Titanic. randomly or selectively enforced rules can be that iceberg.

[races65]

What needs to happen is this. All of the owners of dirt oval tracks across the nation need to have a meeting TO DECIDE ON ONE SET OF RULES FOR DIRT OVAL RACING. Now I understand some would not show, and some would never agree on the rules. But if you could get say 60-70 percent of the track owners to go by one set of rules- the 30-40 percent that didn't want to comply would probably be down on car count. They could always jump onboaed later.

I really believe the DODC Nitro Tour rules are pretty straightforward. Not a whole lot of rules, but something to keep everyone in check.

Maybe, instead of trying to get all the track owners in one place, paperwork could be sent out to all track owners with the proposed rules. They could send feedback, and then later be asked if they are in or out. Not sure any other way it will work. I think in addition to the rules, there could be some type of national points system for club racing. Get the Custom Works, Klein, DynoTech, OFF. AE and so on involved to offer something at the end of the season for each region and for National points.

JMO

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Again, the OPEN WHEEL RACE or WDRA rules are all we really need. Every class excpet for Latemodels is covered, and it wouldn't take long to make some. The only thing that will vary from track to track is tires.

Why is everyone trying to make things more complicated???? The rules are ALREADY IN PLACE!

[twisted]

Again, the OPEN WHEEL RACE or WDRA rules are all we really need. Every class excpet for Latemodels is covered, and it wouldn't take long to make some. The only thing that will vary from track to track is tires.

Why is everyone trying to make things more complicated???? The rules are ALREADY IN PLACE!

amen

[Doug Carter]

Again, the OPEN WHEEL RACE or WDRA rules are all we really need. Every class excpet for Latemodels is covered, and it wouldn't take long to make some. The only thing that will vary from track to track is tires.

Why is everyone trying to make things more complicated???? The rules are ALREADY IN PLACE!

Paul is absolutely correct. The rules are in place already, they are just not all in the SAME place. What is needed is for someone to combine the existing class rules from DODC's Nitro Tour, WDRA and add a few missing details (2wd wedge, TC Late Model, etc.) and put them all in the same place... like here on DODC.

Let tracks decide for themselves if they want to run DODC-structured rules or not. Anyone that does, you know that wherever you go around the country, you'll be in the ballpark.



Seems reasonable.

[93TA]

Paul is absolutely correct. The rules are in place already, they are just not all in the SAME place. What is needed is for someone to combine the existing class rules from DODC's Nitro Tour, WDRA and add a few missing details (2wd wedge, TC Late Model, etc.) and put them all in the same place... like here on DODC.

Let tracks decide for themselves if they want to run DODC-structured rules or not. Anyone that does, you know that wherever you go around the country, you'll be in the ballpark.



Seems reasonable.


sounds like a plan to me!

[Todd Putnam]

...Amen brother Waldo...
________
Trade credit insurance forums (http://www.insurance-forums.org/trade-credit-insurance/)

[Mongo]

[QUOTE=Bulldog_Wally14]www.rochesterrc.com/wdra (http://www.rochesterrc.com/wdra)

click on "rules"...
The height rule is 7.5", and I gave a 1/4" tolerance, which some really needed, LOL!!
[QUOTE]

Cough Cough.... thank Wally!

[g_rod22x]

See....my tech passing technique was dialed....I just grabbed the biggest rock under Wally's table...and set it on my body center section...Presto!...no body height issue!

[Dlan44]

Erich, this is in no way sarcastic.....but I would like to wish you all the luck in the world. RC racers are a fickle group of people who don't like rules if it doesn't help their individual self.

Sorry but I see it everytime I travel to another track.


That is the truest post in the thread.

Rules by manufacturers.........sounds like ROAR.

Rules by committe..........could be a mess unless you have a 1,000lb. Gorilla keeping them in line.

If there is a committe.........it should be representatives from track owners, and racers. They know their racers, and what is needed to keep his doors open. As far as weekly races, national rules are a boilerplate for the track rules. No track owner will turn down an entry fee because a car is too wide, or fin too high. ANY rule package, local or national should have four primary objectives.

(1) Safety..........

(2) Keep the costs down and entries up.

(3) Competition...........close hard racing.

(4) Always provide an entry level class to get new blood in the hobby.

Manufacturers will always seek an edge, but they will make parts usable for the racers within the rules. They will also make "outlaw" parts for those that want to just go fast and/or bend the rules. Either way......they will make money. The track owners and getting new interest in the hobby should be our concerne. If the tracks we have stay open, and we get new tracks and racers..........all manufacturers will reap the benefits

[DrOlds]

The manufacturers need to be a part of the process as much as racers and track owners.A big part of why roar is such a mess is because they don't include the manuf. in the decision making process and force them to abide by thier arbitrary and often unrealistic rules(and blatantly pander to others).If it weren't for roar rules we would all have better products at lower prices available to us(look at the junk motors we have to use!).Manufacturers want GROWTH-and they have more at stake to lose if a bad decision is made.There seems to be a common attitude that all the r/c companies want to just "stick it to us" all they can.That just isn't so-they want MORE customers,and we as racers want more people to race with.And if you have a BALANCED representation of companies on the board,then you won't have any problem of rules getting passed to favor any one company.I would rather see people in charge that have actually made an effort to study the market and are involved with it everyday.Daryl Lane,Todd Putnam,Rob Cutman,Gary McAllister,Wes Brown,and others that I'm sure deserve to be mentioned here also,would have more helpful insight than any local racer or track owner,and I would trust them to work towards the greater good.

[Doug Carter]

A big part of why roar is such a mess is because they don't include the manuf. in the decision making process and force them to abide by thier arbitrary and often unrealistic rules(and blatantly pander to others).If it weren't for roar rules we would all have better products at lower prices available to us(look at the junk motors we have to use!).Manufacturers want GROWTH-and they have more at stake to lose if a bad decision is made.


Hmmm... I'd argue that heavily.

Trinity.
Reedy.


Manufacturers want MONEY, more than anything else. THey don't care about growth. If they did, 10th on road, 12th scale carpet, dirt oval and 4wd off road would not be hanging on for deal life. In my experience, it's the manufacturers that have ruined ROAR and controlled it entirely out of sheer greed.

I'm sure that the manufacturers of dirt oval products are different towards this form of racing, but they are still out to sell their own products above and beyond anything else. I know they all can lend insightful input, but I don't know if the tail wagging the dog is in everyone's best interests.


That's just me...

[DrOlds]

Manufacturers want MONEY, more than anything else. THey don't care about growth. If they did, 10th on road, 12th scale carpet, dirt oval and 4wd off road would not be hanging on for deal life. In my experience, it's the manufacturers that have ruined ROAR and controlled it entirely out of sheer greed.




I kinda figured I'd be the lone capitalist here.Anyone in business with half a brain knows that if you aren't growing,you're dying-and if your margins are up but your customer base is shrinking you are looking at a problem long term.Not to imply that everyone in business has half a brain(far from it)but those guys at Reedy and Trinity aren't dumb.Trinity has tried for years to promote entry level racing with their various T-spec cars,and I doubt they have made any money off of them,but the fact that they are trying to support the bottom end of the market as well as the top shows that they get the big picture.Motor companies in particular have been hamstrung by roar's dumb rules and we all pay for it.Profit is a strong motive to do things right.All I'm saying is,if you make the same mistakes that roar has already made then you will get the same results.

[RCRACR20]

Again, the OPEN WHEEL RACE or WDRA rules are all we really need. Every class excpet for Latemodels is covered, and it wouldn't take long to make some. The only thing that will vary from track to track is tires.

Why is everyone trying to make things more complicated???? The rules are ALREADY IN PLACE!


Wally for president.

You dont need to come up with a new set of rules, as Wally and Grod stated, there are already rules in place (Open wheel race rules and WDRA rules are essentially identical). Perhaps instead of coming up with new rules, take the rules from 2 of the biggest dirt oval races in the country, and try getting other tracks (those of which may not have any dirt oval rules) to conform

[rythemchaos04]

You Got My Vote :>

[twisted]

like i stated before, the rules are fine. my next question is who is gonna be the person who organizes this whole thing ? i see alot of oppinions and people say we need this or that but no one with any real go nads to do anything.

i feel dirt oval is on the rise, rules are fine we just need more manufactures to pump some product out!

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Trinity has tried for years to promote entry level racing with their various T-spec cars,and I doubt they have made any money off of them...

Does anyone really believe that Ernie would be selling it if it didn't make money? T(rinity)-spec is a great idea...invent a class to get new people into the sport (thats the good part), and get a jump on the competition by having the 1st car that is legal for this new class (good business, not necessarily good for R/C). They are promoting these classes, but doing what is good for R/C is definately a distant second to the company's bottom line.

I'm not here to defend ROAR either. I'm sure that if DO racing continues to re-gain popularity, ROAR will show interest again, but we (DO) don't need them now, and we won't need them then. The one good thing that I see coming from ROAR is some regulation on stock motors, and really on mods too. Even if Trinity and Reedy are really the ones "driving the bus" on motors, there is at least the appearance that ROAR keeps what I would call the "motor-of-the-week" scenerio from playing out, and I think that's a good thing.

The power tool industry are the ones driving battery technology, so I think that in reality, we and ROAR (or any other sanction) are really at their mercy. Right now is a perfect example. The 3300s have one foot in the grave, and the other on a banana peel, but the 3700s and 3800s are yet to be "approved" by ROAR. If you need to buy batteries today, which ones are you going to buy?

Sure the companies are out to make a buck and sure some of the smaller comapnies are in it for the love, but wouldn't be if they weren't breaking even or making a little. The little guys are the ones who support DO the most. In turn we should support them as much as we can, so the next time you are about to lay down the big bucks for a Trinity motor or battery pack, ask yourself what Trinity has done for dirt oval lately, and then go and buy from someone like Putnam or Whiplash! You'll get a product from someone who cares about their product's quality as much as or more than they care about the product's margin...and you'll probably save a little dough too.

[bolognarc]

Sure the companies are out to make a buck and sure some of the smaller comapnies are in it for the love, but wouldn't be if they weren't breaking even or making a little. The little guys are the ones who support DO the most. In turn we should support them as much as we can, so the next time you are about to lay down the big bucks for a Trinity motor or battery pack, ask yourself what Trinity has done for dirt oval lately, and then go and buy from someone like Putnam or Whiplash! You'll get a product from someone who cares about their product's quality as much as or more than they care about the product's margin...and you'll probably save a little dough too.[/QUOTE]


I've enjoyed reading these posts & I'm glad to see others such as Wally can see thru trinity's B.S.

[Bulldog_Wally14]

Maybe someday, one of the DO-supporting little guys will become a big guy, or at least a medium-sized guy! LOL!

[Daryl Lane]

SORRY it took so long to post - I've been busy making new parts.


The conversation I was having with RCdriver about rules was a rather simple one; we were talking about width and length of Cars and Bodies, it is the same basic thing you brought up Doug with the basic Late Model thread.


Just for nitro touring cars, I've had request for 4 different widths, with limitations on the design by the racers. Tires have to be inside the body but not to far inside and then there is the: I run 2.4" dia tires - I run 2.7" dia - oh we run 3" dia tires ... and so on.


So my idea about rules for the latemodels was a simple standard for width, length and height. As a manufacturer we can not make 4 or 5 bodies for one class to suit everyone’s individualism. We're going to have two for now.


I have kit bashed and hand modified every race car I've ever raced be it Off Road, On Road, Super speed Way or Dirt Oval. I've custom built 35 to 40 cars raced at roar nats, norrca nats and lots of Big once a year races, all with in the guidelines of the class rules they were going to raced in. I never felt the rules slowed us down or stopped me from doing what I wanted.


Point of note: All of Custom Works Cars are designed and Built to Roar Rules.


So anyway my point to the rule thing was to have it so everyone in a given class could race a body that worked and fit their chassis of choice. I’d rather spend time working on making the bodies work and handle better then worrying about how many cars this one fits or that one fits that's all.


As far as making a full on chassis, if there are no basic guild lines on width & length, how many class's do we want with 3 to 5 racers in them?


There are always two sides to everything - not trying to limit you guys - just trying to give everyone parts they can buy and have fit - work.


I can assure there are racers racing in parts of the country that if they go to another parts or a big race somewhere else will have their weekly raced rig axed when they get to the big race.


As far as being in it for the money, how do you pay your bills? Do you go to work for the love of it and tell your bosses "you do not need to pay me this week; the work was so much fun to do."


I do what I do because, I love what I do, AND hope I can pay the bills by doing it.


All growth in R/C in part is because of manufactures not the racers, they make the kits you see them like them and buy them. JG and A&L got oval truck racing started, JG, BIG BOYS TOYS, McAllister got Sprint cars and 4WD wedge cars into being back in the days of the RC10 & Yokomo Chain drive Dog Fighter. Then Custom Works made their 4WD cars using that chain drive system.


All these Companies were started by r/c racers how wanted to work at something they enjoyed as a hobby - about 90% of your local tracks are there because a hobbyist thought he like to work at something he loved to do.


I really do not mean to step on any toes here; I just was looking for some SIMPLE GUIDELINES.

Note on ROAR, ROAR was controlled by one company in the beginning for a long time!!

And then it was handed for to the rule of an "I'm in it for ME and the MONEY" Dude in the 90's! It has never recovered form that, I believe.

In its beginning it was a good idea because it gave blanket insurance coverage to tracks clubs and racers at the races. It also stated some simple rules that started a level playing field for the racers, be defining classes - differences between stock and modified.

[Daryl Lane]

The only Problem with DODC Nitro Tour rules is "Nitro Tour Rules" no rules for electric kits and they do not have rules for nitro sedans yet.

They only have rule for the cars they race. I use they're rules when working on parts for cars raced in their classes.

[RCDriverER]

Let me start off by saying this, Erich, You will never be allowed to use my bathroom at da'Birds again. P U!

LMAO! Hey after a week of not sleeping and really bad food... would you expect anything less!

Anyway, GUYS, I didn't bring this up to get yelled at (I love that fact that because I work at a magazine... everyone in oval thinks I don't know what I'm talking about... even though I've raced oval for 15 years)! I'm just trying to start a discussion, that is what this board is for right? I actually brought it up because I was looking through some old threads and found a few that dealt with this issue from different races and just genereal questions from people. I like the Open Wheel rules too and think theres nothing wrong with them, what I DO SEE from time to time is people traveling to new tracks only to find out that what they usually run and have brought with them either has to be changed or isn't something that's run there AT ALL. Not for nothing but even though its rare since that majority of people will stick to places near them, that isn't good for DO. I think we're better off without ROAR too. I was actually suggesting that we work together to come up with our own.

[Dlan44]

Paul is absolutely correct. The rules are in place already, they are just not all in the SAME place. What is needed is for someone to combine the existing class rules from DODC's Nitro Tour, WDRA and add a few missing details (2wd wedge, TC Late Model, etc.) and put them all in the same place... like here on DODC.

Let tracks decide for themselves if they want to run DODC-structured rules or not. Anyone that does, you know that wherever you go around the country, you'll be in the ballpark.



Seems reasonable.


EXACTLY.......................

[Dlan44]

The manufacturers need to be a part of the process as much as racers and track owners.A big part of why roar is such a mess is because they don't include the manuf. in the decision making process and force them to abide by thier arbitrary and often unrealistic rules(and blatantly pander to others).If it weren't for roar rules we would all have better products at lower prices available to us(look at the junk motors we have to use!).Manufacturers want GROWTH-and they have more at stake to lose if a bad decision is made.There seems to be a common attitude that all the r/c companies want to just "stick it to us" all they can.That just isn't so-they want MORE customers,and we as racers want more people to race with.And if you have a BALANCED representation of companies on the board,then you won't have any problem of rules getting passed to favor any one company.I would rather see people in charge that have actually made an effort to study the market and are involved with it everyday.Daryl Lane,Todd Putnam,Rob Cutman,Gary McAllister,Wes Brown,and others that I'm sure deserve to be mentioned here also,would have more helpful insight than any local racer or track owner,and I would trust them to work towards the greater good.

ROAR does have manufacturer input on rules, even though they try to mirror IFMAR. That is why Touring cars now have open engines and 30mm wheel max. That is also why elec. buggy (and DO) min. weight is 52oz instead of 54. That is why ceramic engine parts were banned for so long, most mfg didn't have them developed then.

BTW..........you left out one of the most important DO manufacturers.........Dennis Klein.

[Dlan44]

.


I've enjoyed reading these posts & I'm glad to see others such as Wally can see thru trinity's B.S.[/QUOTE]


I never thought I would ever say it........but I do agree with some of Ernie's points. However he seems to have forgotten the days when Trinity was in the DO drivers seat. Remember when guys............when Thawley (sp) was ROAR's DO rep. Times have changed, but the playing field needs to be level for everyone........including Trinity.


BTW.....................I do understand your problem Daryl. You make a good product, just like Gary and Customworks. there are just too many Latemosel versions (2wd/4wd nitro and electric). I was in a discussion about nitro latemodels a few nights ago in Monee. If a body is built that will fit over a nitro TC with 2.2 wheels and buggy or foam tires, it should work for most cars. I know the east coast run 2wd........but being creative......you could make a body to fit both. I think 10 1/8" wide +/- 1/8" would probably work for most as well.........watcha think?

[Daryl Lane]

. I know the east coast run 2wd........but being creative......you could make a body to fit both. I think 10 1/8" wide +/- 1/8" would probably work for most as well.........watcha think?


I'm working that out - but Nitro touring cars at their widest are only 8 & 1/8" wide 'ALL ON-ROAD RULES SAY 7 7/8" wide Max', so a body 10" wide would be 3/4" min. wider on each side then the track width of the chassis, too much for my liking. I'll have an 8 3/8" approx by 19" out soon for the Nitro Touring car chassis'; and a 10 1/4" wide out after that. The 10 1/4" wide should be wide enough for Nitro CW kits and the like as well as off road buggy conversions. I think late model classes are under rated by some racers and tracks, Late Models are the modern day wedges of the late 80's and 90's. Which in their day had the highest car count of all the R/C Dirt Oval class’s? And the first Wedges were the Yokomo Off-Road buggies run on Dirt Oval, I still have one of my left over wedge bodies painted and un used!:o

I'm going to keep plugging away at it; I just thought it would be nice to all be on the same page. As a manufacture I will not pick who's rules to fellow, because then I'm making a choice that says, "these rules are better then ours?" at least to those persons/track whos rules I do not pick. I have already made parts i.e. our silver crown body that do not fit the DODC and Other Sprint car rules, but many tracks buy them and have classes for them because racers want to race sprint cars but do not want to buy a sprint car kit to start out with. This equals DO growth at the tracks that have classes for them.

The very first R/C sprint cars raced were Toys for Big Boys or was it Big Boys Toys out of ASCOT Raceway So Cal Lexan bodies for OFF-ROAD RC10's just like our Silver Crown. Then McAllister made one then Parma and Bolink. This is when Jerry and Brian had the vision and made the Custom Works Sprinter only cars. Just thought I'd share our Dirt Oval ROOTS with some of the newbie’s that were not around back then and some of us older guys who my have forgotten how it all got started. Dirt Oval began with converted off-road cars then moved into the specialty kits.

Something to consider is: if the rules are not desided on before hand things will get out of hand and then the discousion will get even harder because people have all ready spent money on things that may not make the cut.

I talk to people for WashingtonState to Florida - Texas to New York - believe me - the Dirt Oval Rules in the nation range from NONE to rules more in depth then the old ROAR dirt oval rules. I know for a fact that if some racers from California went to the Florida Summer Nat's with out really looking at the class rules, they would be in a major hurt when they got to tech table.


One Nice Thing About ROAR - When you went to a roar race the rules were all written and easy to fit into. Although I've had my differences with tech guys in the past and their interruption of a rule or two, there was always a ROAR official around to straighten out the tech guy who was putting track rules over the ROAR rules.

[Dlan44]

Agreed...................I run Super Nitro wheels on my LD3. It makes it a little wider. I believe i am going to run a 10" body =/- 1/8".

[bumps and jumps rc]

The other thing you guys have not yet touched on is there are other rules that need addressed other than car stuff, such as race length, ifmar or heads up qualifing, rolling starts or not, can you race the main with a car you did not qualify? - An issue that came up at Staub's? There are many other things other than the basic on track rules that need to be in writing so people like me know what rules to enforce. I beleive there are no unwriten rules - if it isn't on paper then it isn't enforcable.

[kipp]

can you race the main with a car you did not qualify? - An issue that came up at Staub's?
as long as the car is legal i think you should be able to run any car at any time. a backup car, your buddy's car, what ever. things happen, blown engines, melted trannies, hackers like me. it would be silly to make somebody sit out a A main because he has a problem with his car. the rules of the masses are already out there and events we have now are growing every year. look at how many rules nascar has, its rediculous!!

[races65]

The other thing you guys have not yet touched on is there are other rules that need addressed other than car stuff, such as race length, ifmar or heads up qualifing, rolling starts or not, can you race the main with a car you did not qualify? - An issue that came up at Staub's? There are many other things other than the basic on track rules that need to be in writing so people like me know what rules to enforce. I beleive there are no unwriten rules - if it isn't on paper then it isn't enforcable.


Agree 100%.

[Todd Putnam]

The currently accepted rule package, (WDRA) may need some minor tweaking, but is the obvious baseline everyone follows.
I am in favor of IFMAR style starts, as it is the only fair way to level the playing field for qualifying. No one is at a disadvantage if they are starting in the back row, and I feel it produces cleaner heats knowing you're racing your own clock rather than for position....(Sorry Fred!)

As for ROAR, we don't need 'em. The largest and most successful On Road and Oval races have no affiliation with any sanctioning body. Let's keep it that way.

ROAR= Rules Often Are Rewritten
________
SLOVENIAN COOKING (http://www.cooking-chef.com/slovenian/)

[AceRacing8]

as long as the car is legal i think you should be able to run any car at any time. a backup car, your buddy's car, what ever. things happen, blown engines, melted trannies, hackers like me. it would be silly to make somebody sit out a A main because he has a problem with his car. the rules of the masses are already out there and events we have now are growing every year. look at how many rules nascar has, its rediculous!!



I think that if you qualify for the A main and your car brakes before the main and you can't fix it and you have another car then you should start last in the lowest main and work your way back to the A main then not just bring a new or someones else car out to run in the main. I was told Cooper did that at Staubs and if that happen thats is wrong. If you are into the big race car like Nascar sorry Nextal cup you should know better that you can't do that Well that my two cents. Chris you need to start running oval before you can b*tch about oval I've been down two to three times when oval was suppose to running but the off road was still up and when are you going to switch over to personal transponders almost ever track runs them now. I'm not trying to start anything but a fact is a fact.:)

[bumps and jumps rc]

Duane - I am certainly not complaining. Just throwing out my .02.
There are other things that I feel need addressed too, it would seem to me that the wdra/open wheel race has rules that are identical (the same one's I use) perhaps it is as easy as having a web site with all the rules posted - I agree we don't need roar

Let the facts speak loud and clear I will start oval back up in the fall - it simply does not pay to turn on the lights on above the track without 2 people paying me to practice. I would have never stopped changing it except when the weather got nice everyone disappeared. The AMBrc system is in the future - again this is a business and everything has to make sense. I want to be around in 5 years! I have invested about $20,000 into upgrades this summer to complete things and that took priority over the AMBrc system. Hopefully sometime this winter we can upgrade.

[Thunder]

Which one actually qualifies for the race the driver or the car??? It has always been my understanding that the driver is the one who is qualified.

[marzzz23]

I always thought the driver qualified the car. Why do i have a back up car then? Does that mean i cant go to it if my main car breaks? And in my opinion the wdra rules are fine. Roar was horrible in the late 80's when i raced, and i was so happy to find out they were not around for dirt oval when i got back into it 3 years ago. just my 2 cents

[Dlan44]

I think that if you qualify for the A main and your car brakes before the main and you can't fix it and you have another car then you should start last in the lowest main and work your way back to the A main then not just bring a new or someones else car out to run in the main. I was told Cooper did that at Staubs and if that happen thats is wrong.


I understand what you are saying. With today's Race Management software, that could result in a REAL MESS. That would just leave too much work for the race director, and too much room for error. I think the best you could do is make that guy start on the rear of the main he is qualified into, or make a rule that he has to start the chassis he qualified otherwise get a DNF.

[curtisp]

The track that I race at allows the use of a back-up car or truck. This isn't the NASCAR Nextel series and it's not even comparable, at least not at my local dirt oval. I would compare us to the local dirt tracks before I would compare us to the Nextel series. And, at my local dirt tracks (for full size cars), not only do they allow drivers to switch to a back-up car but they allow another driver to run someone else's number for them. There are also times where a substitute driver is used on nights when a driver is unable to race himself. My local r/c dirt oval allows the use of a back-up car, but no substitute drivers are allowed.

To me I think that it is good to allow the use of a back-up car, whether it's your own or somebody else's. We all experience problems from time to time, we should all benefit from it.

[Thunder]

Good point curtisp! If you are running EDM and you have a body that fits you primary car and a back up as well how will anyone know. This type of thing has been going on for years and it is now just becoming an issue after one race. After speaking to a few of the track owners in the area I guess the unwritten rule is the driver is what qualifies for the main not the car. If you try and make it a rule the car is what qualifies it will be very hard to police as well as unnecessary.

[DrOlds]

I don't understand why this is an issue or even worth discussion.This looks like trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

If racer "A" brings 3 cars with different setups,runs 1 heat with each,and picks the one he likes best for the main,and racer "B" brings 1 car,changes the setup for each heat and chooses the setup he likes best for the main,WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

If racer "C" TQ's in heat one and gets hacked in heat two and gets his car broken such that it can't be fixed,why should he be penalized for running a borrowed car,or his backup?

If you say that the driver qualifies for his position,then it's his and he earned it.Otherwise qualifying is pointless and has no value.You might as well run 2 or 3 five minute practice sessions and draw names out of a hat for starting position.

If you say that it's the car that qualifies,then anyone should be able to drive it! And that's rediculous!

If racer "D" gets crashed in heat 3,breaks all 4 arms,both shock towers,the main chassis,and transmission case,bends all the shock shafts and hinge pins,then gets it all fixed in time for the main,should he be disqualified? Or forced to go to the back? If you replace more than half of it is it still the same car? If you replace ANYTHING it's not the same car!

This falls under the catagory of "stupid pointless rules that give people one more reason to never come back".

If I'm missing something here please explain it to me.

[Thunder]

You are not missing anything this is not an issue!!!

[sprinter117]

it is my understanding that Cooper had an engine go bad before the A main started so he ran a buddys car in the A the car he ran did not even make the A main so if he had no practice time with the car and still wanted to race it in the A main I do not see why anyone would have a problem with it. If you ask me he was at a severe disadvantage having not even practiced the car let alone race it . He took a B main car and won the Amain with it so I guess the driver did do the qaulifing not the car. Just my .02 cents worth

[mike]

Leave it up to Coop again !!!! (lol)

[JimmyD]

DrOlds said it all...right on... :)
thats why we bring back up cars...

[Doug Carter]

Just wondering if you guys would mind steering this thread back on topic?

:confused:

[curtisp]

Way to go DrOlds!!! I like the way that you explained it. Well done.

I knew nothing of the race that you guys mentioned were Cooper borrowed someone else's car and won. Good for him. And like DrOlds stated. Would it have really been the same car if he had fixed it? If Cooper had time to change engines before the A-Main, would that be the same car that he qualified. NO.

Now go back to what AceRacing8 said that in NASCAR he would have to start at the rear of the field for an engine change. So no matter what he would have done he would have been screwed. That's bogus! Back-up cars NEED to be allowed.

[curtisp]

oops...sorry Doug.. I was typing when you posted that...

[kipp]

Just wondering if you guys would mind steering this thread back on topic?

:confused:
were not that far of the topic doug. we are still talking about rules.

[Doug Carter]

Well, a specific rule or lack of rules, from a particular race. Not much to do with the topic of a sanctioning body. From the sound of it, whomever made the call about the issue would have done the same, regardless of any sort of collective of rules.

What this does show is two things. One, how so many people can have such varied ideas on how races should be run and rules should be handled, and two, why most rules are created, and over detailed. The comment about, "if it isn't in the rules, then you can't enforce it" is the same reason why so much rule structure is necessary. When guys start to complain about too many rules, you can point to situations like this, as to why.


If no one has done so already, I am going to sit down this weekend and make an effort to collect the rules fountation from the old ROAR rulebook, WDRA, Cooper's Open Wheeled Championships and the DODC Nitro Tour, then throw in our loose structure for the touring car latemodel classes, to see if we can't organize a legitimate collection of every class.

If anyone is interested in helping me in this, feel free to IM me here or on AIM at "upon3" or send me an e-mail to doug@dirtoval.com.

We'll call it a work in progress, but at least its a start.


:D

[Tall Paul]

i guess i have a hood fetish or something. nothing in the rules about hoods, my bad, i will shut up now!!!
Kippy,

I have to agree with you about the missing hoods. I've never seen a real EDM built without one.

If you look at the first paragraph, 2nd to the last sentence of the 2004 US Open Wheel Dirt Oval Championship RULES it states:

All modified bodies, sprint car bodies and cages must resemble real full scale cars running on dirt or paved oval tracks.

What this does show is two things. One, how so many people can have such varied ideas on how races should be run and rules should be handled, and two, why most rules are created, and over detailed. The comment about, "if it isn't in the rules, then you can't enforce it" is the same reason why so much rule structure is necessary. When guys start to complain about too many rules, you can point to situations like this, as to why.

[Mason]

We run a combonation of Nitro Tour (western region) for the nitros and open wheel champ rules for electric in our Florida Dirt Oval Series. Works good so far and we have some great fun, and great racing. They allow for conversions and purpose built kits, along with home built jobbies. Tires are track specific and racers have known from day one what works at all the series' tracks. I believe Larry (93ta) has mentioned them before. Qualifying is 3 rounds of 4 minute rolling start (double file where possible) IFMAR Rocket style for Nitros. Our local Electric guys are bent on row starts with cycling. I would prefer IFMAR rocket all around because we all know a few laps into it you're in traffic and where you started on the grid means about jack squat after that. Mains are 4 mins as well. Averaged 50+ racers by word of mouth for the 1st two races and it all took place in less than 45? days. Will be up towards 75 when everyone gets in sync.

I finally found the WDRA rules at the bottom of their main page for their summernationals atleast, as the RULES link only showed EDM info. Was lost for awhile :P

I'll keep the rest of this short and sweet.

The Driver qualifies the car, as long as Driver races the main they can use any car (meeting specs and passing tech) they want. We're not here to play nascar, woo, imca or any other professional racing series. We are here to have fun while at the same time being competitive. If we wanted to be racing full size cars I'm sure we would find a way to participate in that. And if you are hell bent on penalizing people for being prepared (back ups) you can send them to the back of the grid if they aren't ready to grid up on time. (boy would you get pissed if this server didn't have a back up)

I had some more things but the mind went poof :P

I want to make it clear that whatever the rules, they need not detract from the home brew or conversions cars to appease kit cars. After all, home grown is where it began.

[Doug Carter]

I spent some time collecting the rules from a bunch of different locations, and I think I have everything that matters to DO racing. They include: Coopers/CW Open Wheel Race, DODC Nitro Tour, WDRA EDM rules, Moody 1/8th gas classes, 2000 through 2005 ROAR rulebooks, including those when DO was still listed as a supported class.

If anyone can think of anything else that should be considered in the collective, please post here. I will post a new thread when there is something to review and discuss in detail.



I still think that there needs to be a rules comittee to discuss the addition and subtraction of ideas and sticking points. It needs to be made up of an odd number of individuals who are racers and reporters, track owners and promoters as well as manufacturers and designers. I don't want to be responsible for what is in and not in, but I don't mind getting the ball rolling and contributing any way I can. I don't think it will consume a lot of time for people who want to be a part of it, but I do think it is important for the credibility of the rules that those involved with its creation are important figures in the sport.


Off the top of my head, classes needed for the collective are:

1/8th Gas Sprint
1/8th Gas Late Model

1/10th Gas Limited Sprint (i.e. DODC legal)
1/10th Gas Open Sprint
1/10th Gas Late Model
1/10th Gas Touring Car/Late Model
1/10th Gas Coupe
1/10th Gas EDM
1/10th Gas Truck

1/10th Electric Sprint
1/10th Electric 2wd Late Model (wedge)
1/10th Electric 4wd Late Model (wedge)
1/10th Electric TC Late Model
1/10th Electric EDM
1/10th Electrci Truck
Electric classes will have stock and modified division breakdowns.


I'm sure I'm missing something. Please comment if you see something omitted. The idea is not to make 50 classes for everywhere, but to give a rule base of classes to choose from. Obviously, some classes will be run in certain parts of the country when others will not. It is up to the track and promoter to decide what to use. Some classes may never have ANY participation, like a 2wd electric wedge class, but they will be there should someone decide to start a class.



The ball is rolling...

[rythemchaos04]

I'm in if you need help!!! just e-mail me or PM me for my number!