TIME for a change??

[brockh]

Why is it at the past Eastern race at Staub brothers the mains were 5 mins? What is the justification for throwing a fuel milage factor into a race that may cause potential winners to run out of fuel and finish last in their main.....Why make someone keep twisting the hi-speed needle to the point of burning up an engine to make their run last 5 mins. If we change the time on the mains...why don't we go to 7 or 10 mins.....lets make it the last person running wins. If you set up the heats at 4 mins why not keep it a standard throughout the entire day/night of racing.
The only reason I bring this up is one person that was in contention to win the edm "A" main at staubs ran his engine at 320 degrees and still could not run the entire main, he started as late as he could and conserved fuel as best he could and still ran out at about 4 mins 30 sec. Is a 200-350 dollar engine worth 1 more minute of racing????

I am not writting this to tick people off i'm looking out for those of us that don't have extra 300 dollar engines laying around collecting dust.

[twisted]

how about a larger tank or is that regulated in the rules ? or a pit stop ? i raced nitro offroad for the past 2 years and we ran 10 minutes mains and 5 minute heats. he made the heats but needed a pit for the mains.

also theres some little tricks. run to large fuel filters and a long fuel line. start the car up get the line and the fule filters full and top off the tank.

[DaBearsNo13]

The rules were given to Nick by Craig himself, & it was discussed in the drivers meeting as such. Personally I did feel kind of bad for Jeff. On the other hand, I did not change one setting on my carb all weekend & I still had probably 20-30 seconds worth of fuel left after the race. I obviously do not have the big motor that Jeff or some of the other guys have, but it had enough power to "hold its own". If we wish to have people respect the rules, then we have to enforce them. No race will go completly flawless. Nick made the decision to change the Wiley's race due to the fact of fuel mileage issues, but Craig himself said that this was not allowable for the #2 & #3 races. The flyer reads 5 minute mains & that is what we are sticking to. Like Nick said we could have DQ'ed alot of cars (mine included) because most guys throw the retainer away & do not install them in the AE tanks. I myself keep these in my tool box just in case anyone ever asks, the extra 5cc did not seem to affect my mileage anyway. Nick & I are both 1st year guys at this tour & we are trying to keep the masses happy. When you take on such duties however, keeping everyone happy is more difficult than most beleive. In short I do feel for my fellow racer, but these are the rules in which we shall have to obey. Any questions feel free to ask.

Thankyou,
Russ

[brockh]

Russ,

I'm not bashing you or Nick over the issue...infact I think you guys are doing a hell of a job keeping order and running these shows, I just felt that Jeff was taken out of contention for something that wasn't part of how he ran in the race but how long his fuel would last.....I know there are tricks to getting the 5 mins in, if you looked in half the cars they had about 3 feet of fuel line.....now we are crossing into that gray area of we regulate fuel tanks but we can store a half gallon of fuel in the fuel line.....something needs to give

[DaBearsNo13]

Brock,

Nothing was taken personally & I appreciate your good comments. We shall have to see what we can do with this manner & go from there. Once again I feel for Jeff, but in all that is part of racing (no offense). TTYL & as soon as we hear something we shall post it. Thankyou for your patience,

Russ :)

[Doug Carter]

If I recall correctly, they have been running 5-minute mains in the midwest for about 10 years with absolutely no problem. And you don't need giant fuel filters and 3' of fuel tubing to do it, either.

5-minute mains are not new to gas sprint cars.

Out of curiosity, what kind of motors and fuel percentage are you guys trying to run?

[antilley]

As someone that has seen the other side of unlimited engines and tanks .... there are problems there as well. I hate that anyone tore up a motor --- but, the difference between running an engine at 260 and 320 was not the cause of him not making time so there had to have been other factors. Added fuel line can also cause an engine to run lean, so there is not always a quick fix.

My guess is that as he leaned the engine, it didn;t help...as any gain was likely offset by more power causing the tires to spin / light up ... or it could be as simple as an engine that will not make time. We have all had them... and when you get one that will not make time you don't run it in a 5 minute main. I know that several folks that went to Arizona last fall made a choice to run .12 3 ports in there cars to make time.... it is what it is. (and I ran out of fuel at that same race in my main and learned a valuable lesson)

I personally like having to worry about fuel as part of the race --- it is a penalty for being on the car';s lid ... it gives the guy out front something to think about .... it is imperative you run the right gear... and the guy that wants to run brutus HP has to consider the consquences.

My 2 cents...

[brockh]

If I recall correctly Jeff was running a RB 3 port and Byrons either 20 or 30 not sure of the percentage. He is running a BMS car with an associated type tank.

[sprinter117]

the car that ran out of fuel runs a Rb Concept 3 port I'm not sure if he runs 20 or 30 % fuel but it is byrons . I think rules are rules but if we run 4 minute heats and mains around here all the time why should we change that for a tour race ? I personally was not at this event because of the weather but at Wileys Nick did not have a problem changing it to four minute mains. I have run the tour as much as I can over the last 3 years including Coopers, Rays Place , Wileys,Newville ect... and I have never run a five minute main why did it change for just this race ? Nick himself changed it at Wileys because he did not feel it was "fair" to every one to run five minutes. I'm also not trying to ruffle anyones feathers but if you start changing the rules half way through a four race point series and it cost some one a good finish just because they ran out of fuel to me that is not fair If it happend to Russ right after it happend to Jeff I'm sure he would feel differently than he does after winning. In my opinion (for what it is worth) runing out of fuel should not cost anyone to lose a race (unless they forgot to put fuel in the car) if you crash and break something and lose that way thats racing but changing the rule just for certain tracks is another !
Just my .02 cents worth

by the way congratulations on the win Russ

[apurplez28]

As Doug said here at Roys we run 5 minute mains and I run a RB 3 port in a Dynotech car, I run the two minute warm up 5 minute main and still have gas in the tank. Also there are guys that run monster hp and still get it done.


chris

[Night Flight]

Running that kind a temperature I would look at some of the after market cooling heads. I run in the desert southwest and at the end of 5 min. with a O'donnell head on a OS .12 I am running about 240 to 250 degrees. The drive line of the track I run at is 260 ft. with a anbiant temperature of right around 100 degrees. Some of the people I race with turn laps of 6.8 to 7.0 in race traffic of usually 8 to 10 cars. I My self have seen very little problem of getting the fuel to go the 5 min. distance. But then again it is just one pesons observation. I don't feel that any governing body would do anything to lower the car count at an event. Back in the midwest the big cars have to my knowledge always run more laps in the main than in the heat races. Question if the main was the same length of time as the heat races what would set it apart from any of the other race besides the name (main) ?

[sprinter117]

I agree with night flight here if we are runing five minute mains we should run five minute heats but form what I under stand it was four minute heats and five minute mains

[Night Flight]

I am sorry if I misrepresented the track I run. We run 4 min. heats and a 5 min. mains. I once again apologize for any misleading information.

[apurplez28]

The local tracks here also run 4 minute heats and 5 minute mains.


chris

[Doug Carter]

The last sprint car I ran was an RB 3-port, on Byrons 20%, and without any added "tricks" that car had no mileage problems whatsoever. Two minute warmups plus a 5-minute main was never an issue. Something leads me to believe that there may be other things contributing to the mileage problems.

I don't know why there is a problem with 5-minute mains. This isn't electric racing, these cars will last that long. The rules for the Nitro Tour are the same everywhere and have been like this since the beginning, and this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

How hard would it have been to run 5+ minutes in practice to see what was needed to compete? If there were problems in practice, use less throttle. No need to burn up an engine running so lean that it runs at those temps.

[Animal]

my only issue is why is it that the largest sprint car population (which is the north east) has the least say in whats going on here.

you guys in the mid west and west have been running it for ten years good for ya, keep running it. we over here dont run dont want it. and i personally dont feel it should be jammed down our throats.

with the largest car counts showing up at the east series races, i believe that we need to spot arguing and the tour directors start listening

[JAC9]

I thought I should speak up before this gets to far out of hand Guys. I have since had time to calm down and reflect on the matter and no I'm still not happy with losing in this fashion but the facts are clear. I do not have the car setup correctly to put the power to the ground. The car lifts the left rear tire in the corner and from the center off it freewheels (gear diff) the left rear until the sets down then goes(don't get me wrong guys the cars been working well this way but it barely makes a 4min main with fuel at Newville). (Plus I like full throttle) But in another post it was asked on June 23 how long the mains were and it was posted at 4min buy Nick D. so I didn't concern myself with fuel mileage, it was not clear until Sunday morning that we were running 5min mains so all morning in practice I had a buddy time my runs. I could only get 6min of run time so I waited until 45sec to go and fired the car hopping to make it, but there was a freq conflict and we ended up refueling and I don't know how long we were out there before we started again but as Russ said it is all a part of racing I still had a good time. Brock, Bill, etc I appreciate the concern but the fact is most if not all others made their 5min mains without problems. Just to answer any questions I am running a standard plug RB 3port with 30% Byrons. Also just to let every one know I run the same motor and gear in my sprint car and it lasted just fine but the fact is you just can't run a sprint car as hard so you don't use as much fuel.

Congrats to Russ on his win!!
There will be another time and another place. Ha

Buy the way Nick I just want to let you know I am not complaining I was just stating the facts I think you and Russ are doing a fine job.

I would like to thank Craig, Nick and Russ and anyone else how helps in the Dirtoval.com tour.

[TQT2]

Guys not being new to internal combustion engines, I know that the barometric pressure, ambiant temp and humidity all play a part in tuning. I will agree that being out in the midwest and left coast, they do have an advantage as far as weather.

Also, something as what might be percieved as "stupid" like 70% humidity, will cause you to tune your engine and consume more fuel. Animal your right, I also don't participate in the Nitro Series, but I do feel I have enough knowledge to reply here.


Rules are rules... when I run offroad I use the "tank slug" and I still make 5 minutes and have gone as far as 7 mnutes before coming in for fuel. But I also know that on a "dry" day versus a "muggy" day I'll get better fuel mileage. I run either a STS 3 Port Blue Headed engine or a RB V .12 3 Port, both make great power and the STS is actually better on fuel. Nitro isn't a kids game. It's what the "Top Fuel" guys run...and they have computers telling them which way to go with variables. So just understand that weather is a huge factor in tuning and do the best you can. Shoot, I've even seen some of the gas guys carrying a wooden Temperature, Baro Pressure & Humidity thingy from their house....or they got it at Walmart. That's a good investment when your tuning for optimal power and mileage.

[brockh]

I was able to last the 5 mins in my sprint car.....granted I was running a OS TR standard 3 port, but it just lasted. During the day my first and second runs, I came back in with fuel that just barley covered the bottom of the tank. I, like Jeff, twisted on the top end to try to squeek it out. I waited to the last minute to go out and ran NO hot laps before the race and like I said, I just lasted the 5 mins. But here again I will revert back to my first statement....if we go 5 why not 7. Why don't we have it so the last car running ,if he turns the most laps, wins. I just don't feel as if 5 minute mains are going to decide who the better racers are. If you are up front and squeezing the trigger harder than anyone else out there because you have your car handeling better than anyone else out there you are probably using more fuel up than the other guys....why penalize someone that can squeeze the throttle harder and longer?

[DaBearsNo13]

Thankyou Jeff, it takes a big man to say all of that, and it is truely appreciated. Jeff is great guy to race with & I stayed within a straitaway of him through most of the race. Sure I would rather have been able to catch up to him & passed him, but the results were as they were. Not that I would have caught him, but I know that just before he ran out of fuel I started squeezing it just a little more,knowing my car was good on fuel (or so I was praying) & he was not that far out in front :) Unfortunatly we may never know, but there is other races for him to beat me again & again & again & ETC....!! LOL :)

TQT2 brings up a good fact about the weather. Seeing is that the dew point was up over 72 degrees I would say that humid & sticky were understatements! LOL My car did not want to start to easily for any of the races, and that is probably why.

Anyhow, I just want everyone to have fun & if there are any concerns please feel free to ask them. Once again, not to upset anyone, but I am sure that the 5 minute mains are here to stay. Not just because of the win either, trust me I had my concerns as well as any one else.

TTYL, Russ

[brockh]

I didn't start this thread to start a conflict or stir the pot.....I was not happy to see someone that has helped me a great deal and who I consider a good friend run out of fuel and be taken out of a race because of it but I was looking past that.....I'm more concerned about the fairness of the races. The racers are the guys that make the tour, if all the racers felt they could make 5 mins great...but if 5 out of 100 couldn't is it really fair to them?,they paid their 18 bucks to race and have fun too. I think Nick did the right thing at Wiley's by making the mains 4 mins weather it was a concern for the racers not being able to make the 5 or if he felt we were going to go to finish too late. I don't necessarilythink he made a wrong decission with 5 at staubs but he said it wasn't his call there. I will end my posts here and leave with this....though I didn't like the 5 min main there was nothing I or anyone else could say to change that...I had a great day of racing and a great deal of fun there....I commend Staub's for their track...one word "WOW" The guys that showed up there were awesome...I don't think we could have asked for better people to spend the day with.

[apurplez28]

The problem with your theory of 5 out of 100 not being happy with 5 min mains is that what you dont hear or see because the people upset just didnt make a post ...as I did see cause I was there when Craig recieived some of the calls, is that not everyone was happy with the decision of only running 4 min mains at the earlier race.


so the final point is that you will never make everyone happy all the time...but Craig is trying as hard as he can.

chris

[antilley]

JAC9 = racer

That was a great post and what racing is all about .... I like how you were not a 'victim' and gave congrats to the winner. No question that is why you likely were up front to begin with.

WooT

Dan

[kipp]

JAC9 = racer

That was a great post and what racing is all about .... I like how you were not a 'victim' and gave congrats to the winner. No question that is why you likely were up front to begin with.

WooT

Dan
ditto!!

[Dlan44]

This is really a good read......and some great info for new guys. The air density/altitude had allot to do with the milage, as well as admitting there was wheel spinning wide open racing. That is just part of it, Pipe/reversion/venturi/timing.........they all play into milage. Bottom line.... 4min quals and 5min mains have been a standard for a long time. The reason the qualifiers are shorter is to speed up the show. As far as being not fair........it was the same rule/track/weather for EVERYONE. Track changes/tires/tuning......that is all part of being the best on any given day. Our biggest tuning mistake (myself included) that kills milage is to have the low end fat and compensate with idle. As far as 3ft. of fuel line........that is a bit too much. To simplify tech, the rules are written to allow production 75cc. tanks. If someone is actually using 3ft. of fuel line, I would be for limiting that to 12". One thing I did notice is the comments about waiting to start your warm up. At ANY race a guy should be able to have his pit man "TOP OFF" the tank prior to line up/start. I know some tracks dont allow this.......and that should be addressed. A guy should be allowed to warm up and top off. If we reduced the length of the mains...........that is opening up a can of worms. How about 1min mains and Drag engines???? NO leave it as is. That may limit the use of $$$$ insane engines.
The comment (bashing) about the rules being made for the few is unfair. So is the comment about more racers in the Northeast. YES Northeast may get more overall entries.....in combined electric/nitro events, and you guys have a large turn out of EDM's. Consider this though. The issue was concerning Sprints. Phoenix has 68 Nitro Sprints in January. On any given Friday Night (between two tracks) there may be 30-40 Nitro Sprints in the DFW area. Oklahoma will draw 20+ nitro sprints at a club race. There are LOTSA guys running nitro west of the Mississippi.........and we hope one day we can race with you guys either on your tracks....or ours. I have no problem with the rule.....and I have run out before. When it is tuned correctly and I can't set the car up or drive it for 5min........I drop in another lump and save the HOT engine for weather/track conditions where it will run 5min..........or sell it on EBay to someone that lives in Arizona.

[rm-rf]

Baahh 3 foot fuel lines pfft.
They just need the right fuel filter :)
http://www.bigfilter.com/production/fuel/203.jpg
Good for almost another 2 ounces

[John Binz]

Put a couple of those between the fuel line and the engine.;)

[Animal]

The comment (bashing) about the rules being made for the few is unfair. So is the comment about more racers in the Northeast. YES Northeast may get more overall entries.....in combined electric/nitro events, and you guys have a large turn out of EDM's. Consider this though. The issue was concerning Sprints. Phoenix has 68 Nitro Sprints in January. On any given Friday Night (between two tracks) there may be 30-40 Nitro Sprints in the DFW area. Oklahoma will draw 20+ nitro sprints at a club race. There are LOTSA guys running nitro west of the Mississippi.........and we hope one day we can race with you guys either on your tracks....or ours. I have no problem with the rule.....and I have run out before. When it is tuned correctly and I can't set the car up or drive it for 5min........I drop in another lump and save the HOT engine for weather/track conditions where it will run 5min..........or sell it on EBay to someone that lives in Arizona.
no one was bashing the rules, we just dont feel its necessary be force feed what is not standard in the east, nor what we dont want. we ran your rules, and we will run them again.

as for your car counts if im reading this correctly the south west is the sprint car capital in the country? i beg to differ. thats like saying the north west is the nascar capital. PLEASE

[rm-rf]

Put a couple of those between the fuel line and the engine.;)

Naa it only takes one of them. :) I ran one of them running off road when I had an engine I had to fuel more than once during a 10 minute main. Great planes fuel line fittings screw right into the ends of those filters.



The proper tech for fuel capacity is to come up with a overall cc limit for the entire fuel system to the carb, then do a syringe fill with strait methanol from the fuel line at the carb end, until it just starts to come out of the pressure nipple on the tank with the stopper closed. This then covers fuel line length as well as filter capacity. Solves the 3 feet of fuel line. The guys who run more than one fuel filters and the over-sized fuel filters.

[shrttrackr]

First, I would like to thank all that attended this and all of the Nitro Tour events. I am sure that the Scott and Crew did nothing short of a great job.

On to the current discussion-- 5 min gas races are the standard across the country. ROAR, NORCCA, IFMAR all run 5 min races. Granted, these people do nothing for gas dirt oval racing sanctioning. Last year, all of the region races (not national events) were run with 5 min quals and 5 min mains (if your region races were not, then i apologize as they were supposed to have been). Due to the fact that we had at least 2 events run way longer than needed, we decided to cut the qualifiers back to 4 minutes. This shaves roughly one hour from the complete race day (give or take). This is the reason that the regions are setup as is.
It IS my fault for not correcting Nick's post from earlier. Nick and myself discussed this after he posted it and I told him that I would post the corrected info. Sorry about that.

As for 5 minutes making or breaking the race, there are many things that will make an engine not run for an entire 5 minute race yet no one has mentioned the MOST important one. GEARING. Gearing in nitro racing is similar to that of electric racing. The electric guys spend a lot of time deciding what gear to run. They jump up a tooth and down a tooth depending on how much runtime they have left. It is exactly the same with nitro racing. I would venture to guess that gearing the number one reason this person's engine was running hot and not making the time. All he would have had to do was go down one or two teeth on the spur gear. This is hardly noticed.
Other items that tend to lead to bad nitro mileage:

-- Wrong gearing (if you hit top speed 10-20' out of the turn on a 60 foot straight)
-- Tuning.
-- Tuning for weather (changing hot/cold plugs, changing pipes)
-- Different pipes will force you to change the tune on your engine.
-- Not running a full race pace during your warm-up (if you run 20 fast laps, then you will more than likely run out).
-- It should not be necessary to ‘hold back’ on the throttle to make time.

5-Minute races ARE the standard for nitro racing. We cannot help the fact that your home track may or may not run 5-minute races. The Nitro Tour region races are run with 5-minute mains.

Whether you guys believe it or not, I don't just 'dream' these rules/points/guidelines/procedures up on my own. I confide in a few select people when we decide to change a rule. Just because we don't ask every racer about it does not mean that we don't consider what the racers want. Many of the decisions that are made are a result of a previous race incident (whether good or bad) that happened.
There are MANY factors to consider when 'changing' something with the Tour. The tour is orchestrated so that ALL of the regions have a similar setup (within reason). This includes types of track surfaces, type of tires to run, driving distance, procedures, etc.

BTW..the East region has all of a sudden had a burst in attendance. This has NOT been this way over the past 3 years; so, it is unfair to automatically assume that everything should be catered to what the guys in the East want to do. Like stated before, any change has to be looked at over 3 regions and 9 region races.

While we would like to make everyone happy, it is just not possible.
Do not take this that we don't want to listen to your concerns or opinions. Have at it. We will always listen to what ideas you may have.

Again, I’d like to thank all that support the Nitro Tour.

Good luck at the next show.

Craig


i wrote this earlier today....so someone has since mentioned gearing... ;)

[Thunder]

Craig this whole running out of fuel thing does not affect me but I am wondering if 5 minute mains are going to be run at the Newville race. I am asking this because I have heard a couple of different stories as to the length of the mains at that race. I just want to be clear on this subject before we get there and people do not know what the deal is. To be honest I am surprised this is becoming such a big deal in the first place.

Phil

[Dlan44]

as for your car counts if im reading this correctly the south west is the sprint car capital in the country? i beg to differ. thats like saying the north west is the nascar capital. PLEASE

The car counts are accurate. Just go look up the WinterNational results from Phoenix.

I will agree that 4min races were the standard for a long time......for electric.......before the age of 3000ma. batteries. 5min races were adopted for Nitro, and electrics later on. What you choose to run on a weekly basis is up to the track owner, and how many heats he wants to run in a night to get his show over with in a decent amount of time. I would however like to see the Heats and mains the same length for fuel milage adjustsments, but some times you just can't do that for the show. 5min has been a Nitro baseline for the 75cc tanks. Likewise for the larger tanks in BB cars. Most of the Competition Nitro cars today were designed to get at least 5min on a tank........and in most conditions do. 5min is the pit stop window for most on road cars. Most of their major races have 15min qualifiers, and 20-30min.+ mains. Believe me, I understand your frustraition. That rule has been around for a long time, all over the country. It is an unwritten standard. If you are expected to run a 1-2min warm up plus a 5min race without being allowed to top off before the race starts........then I am on your side. That is a bit much to ask from a race engine under most conditions. But a top off then race 5min........that should be easily accomplished,,,,,,,most engines do. The deal is, you didn't know until the race was run how far it would go, due to 4min qualifiers. Then again, the Cup drivers don't know how far they can go till they start racing either. Maybe that is why it is called racin? Look how many times Dale Earnhardt woud have won Daytona if it had been 475 miles. It wasn't......and the rest is history.

[TMM R/C MOTORSPORTS]

Craig,Life`s Short,Race Hard& Forget these WINERS.
No one is bending there arm to race your series.
With a .10 motor you should be able to go 7 mins. easy.
Unless your asking the UNTHINKABLE.

CRAIG Thanks for ALL YOUR HARD WORK.
WE here at TMM R/C MOTORSPORTS Appreciate all U have done for the sport.
Please don`t allow a couple of WINERS to discourage U.

THANKS
TOM FARON

[shrttrackr]

from what i understand, the Newville race IS 4min quals and 4 min mains...unless Mike and Randy have changed it. i don't think that they have. i am starting to work on the new flyer this week, so we will have this confirmed shortly.

the National events have always been a little.

hope this helps...

craig

[k-proof]

I don't see why people are having fuel mileage issues. We have one of the larger tracks on the tour out here in Phoenix (appox. 265 ft driveline) and I can't really remember seeing anyone running out of fuel lately and we run 5 minute mains every race night. There were a few people running AE .15's that were cutting it close, but still were able to make the full 5 minutes.

[Daryl Lane]

Sorry Gentlemen, but on this one I have to say running out of gas "is the drivers fault and not the 5 Min main".

The big difference between I national Champion and a Local hot shoe is his or her ability to adapt to a track and the conditions, length of race is one of those conditions.

The off-road world's mains have been 5 min long since 1988 when we ran on 1300 map batteries. So one of the big factors in winning worlds has always been the ability to finish the race! The heats are 4 minutes long to save time and get to the mains quicker, remember the heats are only quialifing runs to earn the right to race the "A", the whole week or week end is about the mains.

Anyone here watch any REAL auto sports???

Personally I think A-mains should be 10 minutes long with one mandatory pit stop, it is TOO easy to through out a car and hammer out a 4 minute main, and I like the thrill of the whole game of cat and mouse and mechanical prep.

I'm sure the person or persons running out of fuel at the last race will not run out at the next, and he is a better racer already for the experience.

My thoughts.

[Doug Carter]

I'll vote for fuel stops in sprint cars when they run fuel stops with real sprint cars (not Silver Crown, either).

:p

I like long mains, but that's why I bought a road race gas car. Sprints are just that... sprint races.




Then again, you guys can follow along with me and the 4-stroke development and run for 10-15 minutes on a tank of gas. :D

[Daryl Lane]

The thing with real sprints and midgets Doug, is they have room for 20 to 25 gallons or more of fuel, they may only put in 10 or 12 for a 30 lap main but they can put more if they want to. And if there is a red flag most cars will put in another 5 gal or so, and change tires too if they need to.

[Animal]

The thing with real sprints and midgets Doug, is they have room for 20 to 25 gallons or more of fuel, they may only put in 10 or 12 for a 30 lap main but they can put more if they want to. And if there is a red flag most cars will put in another 5 gal or so, and change tires too if they need to.

real sprint cars will burn up close to twenty gallons of fuel here in Pa for a 30 lap feature. under red flag conditons only one crew member is allowed to attend to the car. and usually the only thing thats is done in that time is checking of air pressures, maybe jacking a little weight if need be, and checking of the fuel level, if it is felt that more fuel is need you can add it if need be.

when the races reach the 50 lap or more area, there will be a mandatory fuel stop to refuel all the remaining cars in the race.

as for changing of tires. not at any sprint car race i ever attended, under red.

[John Binz]

You can change tires under red but you are going to the back of the field.

[ksj44]

i'm not an expert at this and i haven't ran the nitro tour, but i have been involved in full size sprint car racing for along time. i agree that 10 min mains with fuels stops isn't sprint car like and i would not want to see that. but is there really a reason to limit the size of the fuel tanks. having to use half throttle to save fuel isn't very sprint car like, nor reducing power to gain gas milage for that matter. wouldn't be a more effective rule if fuel tanks size wasn't limited, because the higher powered cars would have to carry more fuel to make it to the end, this would add weight to the car and make the cars handle more sluggish. this would give the lighter cars an advantage because higher powered and heavier cars would be harder to setup. so wouldn't the engines and fuel tanks police itself. eventually everyone will find the best balance and that is what they will run. too many rules isn't in the spirit of sprint cars and if you want rules then you should run a different class. i hope i didn't make anyone mad but i was just trying to understand the reasoning for the rule. thanks

[Doug Carter]

So we should run longer races, red flag the race and have mandatory fuel stops in the middle?

No thanks.

Learn how to make your motor run for 5 minutes plus the warmup, or run a motor/carb/gear that uses less fuel. I still don't see how this can be something complained about. Nitro sprints have been running 5 minute mains since I can remember. Mileage was never an issue.

Guys who are having tough times making time are BURNING MORE FUEL because they are trying to make a lot more horsepower than the rules system can handle. That's why the rules are there. Some of you guys think that "no rules" is a good thing. Find me one form of real motorsports with no rules. Try running an unlimited class sometime, and see how many cars stay in it for the long haul. They don't work. ALL CLASSES OF ALL MOTORSPORTS HAVE RULES. Even F1.

Run a turbo head, modified 5-port on 30% and it will be fast, but good luck making it to the end of the race. That's the point.

[kipp]

its really a non issue. the person that ran out of fuel explained why he wasn't getting good mileage. i do not see where anything needs to be addressed or changed. 4 minute heats and 5 minute mains. its all good!!! longer races with mandatory pit stops would just be a big clusterfork. thats just my opinion, not that it matters...lol

[rm-rf]

its really a non issue. the person that ran out of fuel explained why he wasn't getting good mileage. i do not see where anything needs to be addressed or changed. 4 minute heats and 5 minute mains. its all good!!! longer races with mandatory pit stops would just be a big clusterfork. thats just my opinion, not that it matters...lol

Actually I find it a lil humorous seeing as the normal weekly races at Newville get so many people they don't get done till the wee HRs of the morning :)

[brockh]

I know I said I was done posting but I have to clear some things up real quick..... First off I'm not whining about the 5 min main, I wanted to know why we have 4 min heats and 5 min mains....why is 5 a standard why not 7 why not 10...Craig answered the question...somehow we adopted it from some other body of racing, not an oval sanctioned body, fine.........I asked why we went 4 at wiley's and 5 at staubs...from what I understand VA will be 5 and Newville will be 4 min, how can this be any good for points races with time variences?.....if the track owners feel as if 4 mins is sufficient then maybe craig needs to collaborate with those certain people he is speaking of and maybe include some track owners to see what the OVAL way should be.....i'm cool with 5 mins, like I said I made the 5 mins....I believe everyone did in the sprint "A" main.....I brought the subject up because of the EDM class...somehow we strayed.

[ksj44]

sorry about that, i didn't realize that this wasn't about a sprint car class, i thought that someone said it was a while back. i am relitively new to this sport and i have heard that some places limit fuel tank sizes in sprint cars. i was just trying to find out reasonings for this, i'm sure there is some good reasoning but i don't know why. thanks anyways

[rm-rf]

Whether they be 4 mins or 5 mins I think the length of races for all the DODC regional series races should be the same across the board from race to race as I think someone else stated before.

[shrttrackr]

all regional events are to be the same. we had some confusion at the Wiley's event and Nick made a judement call that i stand by. They ran 4 min mains.

All of the National events have a different format (Newville is a national event). This is something we would like to standardize as well, but it takes time. right now, we are focusing on getting all of our regional races on the same page. Many of you seem to forget that this series is not that old. This is only the forth year and only the third year for regional events and only the first year for technical inspections at all races.

as for fuel tank restrictions, these are rules that have been in place for gas racing for many years. our rules had to start from somewhere. the reason the tanks are limited is to keep people from getting crazy with engine mods. typically, drastic engine mods (opening ports) take more fuel.

hope this helps

craig

[rm-rf]

Thats why an open forum like this to discuss such issues is nice. While only a core group of people help make such decisions. I'm sure the input from the racers on the forums have a bearing on the decisions that are made.

[Animal]

craig

i feel your explanations have been great, and like you said you needed to start somewhere. and i agree with your earlier post, posibly at one time the mid west, and the west had more nitro sprints. if im not mistaken randy Habiena (spelling) and a few of the wisconsin guys were actually some of the most agressive fore runners in the modern sprint, and edm nitro cars. But now the east coast has picked up the pace, and is takeing over:D

but as the series is growing, as is nitro racing nation wide, rules will need to to be adapted to go along with the growing majority.

we'll support you, and your rules weather we like them or not. thats racing, and as long as we all play by the same rules. we all get to have fun.

as for real sprint cars back in the day the standard fuel cell was only 25 gallons, then came the drop tank which holds 30 gallons, and is pretty much standard now adays. Real sprint cars are placing weight restriction on the cars, because there getting way out of hand. and safty reasons. how do you expext a 1000lb car to withstand the abuse that these guys throwing there 850 hp engines at it.

as in any racing he who has the most HP, and can get it to the ground has the best chance of winning. Real race cars gear there race length to what the fuel cells can hold. so if the engine can only get a 1/2 mile to a gallon its going to be a tight 30 lap feature.

People testing and looking for more HP in racing has been around since day one in racing will be here for ever. no one is forcing anyone to go faster, stay where your at, thats your decision.

im not a fan of 5 minute racing never have been never will be. but if thats what it is, then thats what i will race.

and guys please please please dont ever compare OVAL racers to off road racers. two totaly differnt breeds, and mentalities.

[rm-rf]

and guys please please please dont ever compare OVAL racers to off road racers. two totaly differnt breeds, and mentalities.


Hrrm I race both oval and off-road as well as some on road stuff. Where does that leave me ? hehehe :)

[saywiz]

I for one liked the 5 min main ,I liked the fact that you had to drive smart.It also gave you time to come back from an early mistake as i did in the b main , i was like 6th at one time after leading . i made it back to 3rd with out people falling out . As for real racing the heats are always shorter than the main ...So why not us too I dont think it should be so long you have to pit and i think you can make it just fine....Also I built my truck by the dodc rules i have the insert in the tank and have like 5 in of fuel line .....I made the distance ok . So mabey you have to leave that five port motor at home for these races ... I would just like to see the tech be held up alittle tighter everyone just like in all forms of racin are going to push the rules but its up to the tech guys to hold the to the rules.I know its tough for nick and russ to have to tell a guy they race with every week " hey it maybe be legal at track A but the tour rules are such and you have to change it " But the rules were posted long before the first race and i think if you build something to run the tour race it should be within the rules..scott

[rm-rf]

Someone a lil ways back in this thread mentioned 4 Strokes.
I wouldnt mind putting a 4 stroke in my Sprintcar but dont see where they are legal anywhere yet. I am hoping to get all the Eastern series tracks on the same page as far as their weekly rules are concerned by adopting one set of rules.
See http://www.dirtoval.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12468

Is DODC planning on adding 4 strokes as an option in all classes ?
I for one would like to see it as an option.

I have yet to purchase an engine for my sprint and I'd like to put one of these in my car.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXJRW8&P=7

[Bigben]

I think that everyone needs to take a chill pill. craig knows now that people don't like 5min mains ,but he wants to enforce those rules. Jeff had explained the situation and that is why he is one of the best racers up here. for you guys out west sunday was very muggy and hot. my motor in my car was running at 300 but normally at 230. during the hot laps of the race in question there was a frequency problem so everyone came down to refuel. I held jeffs car will we refueled it and trust me it was full to the top. with only three slow laps to get lined up I think that he did everything at the time to conserve fuel. for the car counts numbers don't lie but I don't think that one area of racers shuold decide. Everyone knew full well about 5 min mains and If they have a problem with it then either don't run or come up with a way. one more thing nick, russ and craig and anyone else I forget you guys are doing one heck of a job. Remember guys these people are VOLUNTEERS!!!!! they do one heck of a job and most of the time catch a lot of bull that they don't need. they also want to have fun. On a better note the racing was great and clean. with the top five in sprint being within a lap of each other and top four in edms being within 2 laps.

[Dirtdog]

At my local track, 5 minutes is the norm for both heat races and the mains. We race sprint cars on a banked dirt oval track. It is my impression that when an engine is new, it gets good fuel mileage and will run cool. As it ages, the temps usually go up and the fuel consumption goes up also. We use 125cc tanks made for 1/8 scale buggies. This allows guys to keep their engine temps down and extend the life of their engines. This extra fuel capacity is not an issue in the races, other than the little extra weight you carry. If it were a situation where pit stops were required, then I could see the advantage of a larger tank. I understand that there are rules, but here locally we do what is best for the racers, as long as no one gets crazy. These are toys played with by men. It should be fun.

[TQT2]

Animal...I'm turn left and right...and I've even table-topped a few. I'm what ya might call divers...lol ;)

Seriously with the nitro, it's not only a race... but it's also a game. Use my latest O\R experience. I run a RB V .12 with a Fantom Pipe in a stock Adam Drake truck. I go out practice, I set my timer and begin my run.... I run out at 4:40 in practice. So I know I'm having fuel mileage issues and head back to the pits. I find that if I run a tooth smaller on the spur...I'll get more mileage. I will sacrifice bottom end though. So I loosen up my slipper a tad. Now I'm thinking I should be right on, so I head out to practice again. This time I make 5:11, so I'm headed in the right direction. Now I know I'm not racing, so I'm not pounding it to get to the front and I need to tune the engine...so a lil leaner on the top end and back out for another tank. 6:21 and I run out on the front stretch. I'm happy with that!!!

Now sorry for takin up space with that lil rant, but if I can do it on the offroad track that had a 625 ft raceline, I'd dare say you can easily make 300 seconds on the oval. Chassis tuning, engine tuning and driving are you best bets on how to make a 300 second race. BTW, crashes do eat fuel, just as it does battery.....so race smart but yet race to be compeitive. And yes....I may put a nitro truck\car together for dirt oval and I will use all the knowledge I've aquired to beat the next guy.

You guys oughta give the STS Stock 3 port a try, $99.00 and when you lean it ourt to much, it shuts off and when it gets enuff fuel again it refires..I've never seen any other engine do this. They also get awesome fuel mileage and will put the best Picco behind it.

[Bigben]

first off we can only have a 75cc tank in everything so no we cannot pt in a bigger tank. most of the time when we slip the slipper we burn it up. the material we ran on this weekend was so tacky that you had to gear the car low to get it into the motors powerband. This in turn makes power. when you gear it lower you use more fuel. so you say don't gear it so low. well the other guy sure as heck did not want to let you win so he has geared his car lower to get into his powerband. remember there is 9 other cars out there trying to do one thing and that is beat you.

[TQT2]

Ok, so you have to walk a fine line of gearing and such....what fun would it be if everyone was equally as fast and you all got to the same corner at the same time? ;)

[Bigben]

i'll tell ya something I would rather have everyone racing then having one person laying back. tell you the truth I think everyone in both the sprintcar and edms were on the same lap until four or five laps in.

[bolognarc]

Gosh we complain about not getting enough track time (heats & mains) here in the south! I would be glad to race 4 minute & 5 minute mains we usually run 20 lap heats & 25 lap mains which equates to about 1.50 second race. So be glad your getting your track time instead of waiting for your next heat!

[Dirtdog]

Gosh we complain about not getting enough track time (heats & mains) here in the south! I would be glad to race 4 minute & 5 minute mains we usually run 20 lap heats & 25 lap mains which equates to about 1.50 second race. So be glad your getting your track time instead of waiting for your next heat!

Man you guys need to mutiny!! My car isn't even hot in under two minutes. Can you explain the logic behind such short races? One thing to remember in racing off road is that you are not on the gas all the time. The off road guys here locally have no problems running seven minute heats on one tank. They race on a big track but it has alot of corners. The oval track we race on, has a 310 foot drive line and we are on the gas 100% on the straights and 85% to 90% in the corners. We race OFF based sprint cars that weigh right at five pounds and we race on 1/8 scale on road foam tires. These cars average around 30 mph per lap in race conditions. Like I said before, I fully understand the DODC rules. We are club racers. We bend the rules to make our racing as fair and as fun as we can. We are not serious national racers, just a bunch of good old Texas boys who have expensive toys and like to compete. To me that is what makes racing R/C cars fun.

[bumps and jumps rc]

The thing you guys forget about is offroad uses half the fuel - you are not on the gas as much and consume much less fuel. Most offroad mains are 15 minutes and require one pit stop - almost all offroad cars can run 8 minutes on a tank of fuel. The one pit stop rule was put into place so people would have to pit - thats right some cars can make 15 minutes on a tank of fuel in offroad, depending on the track suraface and layout. Just wanted to point out you are comparing apples and oranges.

[Oldschool]

The answer is simple. Eliminate the 75cc rule (not necessary anyway) and or adjust the length of all races (heats and mains) so that fuel consumption is not an issue so that EVERYONE can have fun!

[Doug Carter]

Just wondering why you think that there should not be a limit to the amount of fuel you can burn in one race?

If mileage was not part of the picture, you would definitely have guys running heavily modified $400 5-port motors on 30% every weekend. How can that be fun for everyone?

One or two cars runs out of gas at one race, and you guys want to change all of the rules? Even the racer who ran his car out of gas in the lead said it was his fault and he should have adjusted accordingly, considering everyone else in the race made the run time with no problem.



I don't get it.


:confused:

[rm-rf]

Just wondering why you think that there should not be a limit to the amount of fuel you can burn in one race?

If mileage was not part of the picture, you would definitely have guys running heavily modified $400 5-port motors on 30% every weekend. How can that be fun for everyone?

One or two cars runs out of gas at one race, and you guys want to change all of the rules? Even the racer who ran his car out of gas in the lead said it was his fault and he should have adjusted accordingly, considering everyone else in the race made the run time with no problem.



I don't get it.


:confused:

I agree fuel has to be limited. Or there will be guys running big tanks with 40-75% marine racing fuel with custom sleeves in engines that haul the mail so much they need rebuilt or blow up after 6 races or so :) The fuel capacity limit helps keep costs down and levels the field a lil bit between the endless budget racers and the ones whos wives keep an eye on their hobby budget hehehehe.

[Bigben]

right now people are running big motors like that. the motor he was running i believe was a rb rody 5port on 30 percent fuel.

[Dirtdog]

You guys get way too upset. I for one never advocated changing your rules. I simply stated that we have found that having a 125cc tank is not a problem. It has not lead to mega engines or high nitro usages. In fact just the opposite. For awhile all the sprint cars guys ran the new O.S. TZ18's. Now guys are going back to 3 or 5 port 12's. We are concerned about engine life so the larger tanks allow for using more fuel during a race, but still have the comfort of knowing you have enough to finish the race. If you race a sprint car, you usually have enough R/C experience to tune an engine properly. If you are happy with your rules, stay the course. My point is that here locally we have made changes to our cars that have helped to keep things simple and inexpensive for the racers. Of course we also like to race the Out Front Frames RC10GT truck based sprint cars. I guess you could say we are not afraid of change. In fact we promote it. It has leveled the playing field here and made our sprint car racing very competitive. Your DODC legal cars are starting to catch on here, so we may have to modify our "rules" some in the future. I am building a Bulletproof sprint car at this time, and I don't think I could get a 125cc tank in it if I wanted to. Our local track in Garland Texas is going to host a DODC race in November, so we will have to comply with the rule for that race.

[rm-rf]

You guys get way too upset. I for one never advocated changing your rules. I simply stated that we have found that having a 125cc tank is not a problem. It has not lead to mega engines or high nitro usages.

Well up here it would because I would be one of the first ones to bolt one in :)


right now people are running big motors like that. the motor he was running i believe was a rb rody 5port on 30 percent fuel.

Some guys are running some higher end motors. But nothing at all Like some of us know could be ran with 125cc fuel tanks. With 125cc ya can run some real hand grenades on some gnarly high nitro fuel that would suck the 125cc fuel tank dry in 5 mins :)

[Dirtdog]

I have seen guys try those big horsepower engines that cost more than some folks make in a week. I have also seen those same guys overpower their cars so badly that they become a hazard to other drivers. A friend of mine once said, "anyone can build a car to go fast, but few can handle what they have created". To me the object of racing R/C cars is the competition and close racing. I do not find it enjoyable to see some guy lap the field several times, while most of the other guys are having a good battle for second place. I also to not like to run out of fuel in 4 minutes and have an engine temp out at 280 to 300 degrees. We use our standards and they have worked well for us. A word of advice to those who are comtemplating big horsepower engines in hopes of making them faster. Speed is not the key to winning races, driving ability is a much bigger factor. A friend of mine is as good a driver as I have ever seen. He finished second in the a-main at the Phoenix Winternationals in the sprint car class (with an OFF car). He will be piloting a Custom Works car at Monee next week. This guy can beat you racing sprint cars using a O.S CVR-12. He is smooth and knows when to push and when to back off. Next thing you know he has passed you and waves good bye. For most of us average drivers, a mid range engine is all we can handle, and the fuel tank size is a non factor also.

[brockh]

I just want to bring this to everyone's attention please take a look at section 5.1.4 (race length) and granted they are electric but look at the only OVAL times. 2005 ROAR rules (http://www.steelcityhobbies.com/Flyers/2005RulesROAR.pdf#search='roar%20rules')

[Doug Carter]

Electric?

:confused:


Who cares what electric cars do?

[Oldschool]

I still think that there is a simple solution to the problem. Eliminate the 75cc rule or modify the length of the races. If there IS no problem then these 3 pages just seem to be hot air?:D

[Dirtdog]

Your suggestion is valid, but regretfully it will be met with heavy opposition. Thanks for your sanity though.

[TMM R/C MOTORSPORTS]

Maybe the only real prob is the way the races start.
In the midwest series, the 1st car down starts a 2 min clock,after 2 mins the race starts NO MATTER WHO IS OR ISN`T OUT THERE.
In talking with someone who was at last EAST COAST race they said some races took more than 2 mins just to get started.
I still think,2 mins 1st car on trk, 5 min MAIN should be no prob for a .12 motor.
A total of 7 mins should be doable.

[MauriceG]

Maybe the only real prob is the way the races start.
In the midwest series, the 1st car down starts a 2 min clock,after 2 mins the race starts NO MATTER WHO IS OR ISN`T OUT THERE.
In talking with someone who was at last EAST COAST race they said some races took more than 2 mins just to get started.
I still think,2 mins 1st car on trk, 5 min MAIN should be no prob for a .12 motor.
A total of 7 mins should be doable.

After your 2 minute warmup or if there's a time limit, before your 2 minutes are up, could you come into the pits to top off? Our local track gives us 3 minutes to warm up, then come in to top off, then we get lined up in order to get ready to race for 5 minutes.

[Anson Malfaire]

It seems to me if you know the race is 5 minutes long, you better take steps to make sure your ride will make it the distance. Within the rules of course. I was concerned about this myself at Staubs, but I made it okay on fuel. Build it for the rules and the race, you wouldn't see anyone build a full-size sprint car that only held enough fuel for a 10 lap heat race. Would you?

[Dirtdog]

Since you mentioned full size sprint cars, I have been to numerous World of Outlaw races over the years. In more that one race I have seen drivers run out of fuel because of multiple yellow flags interupting the races. With the World of Outlaw cars being so competitive, crews will only fill the fuel tanks with enough fuel to run the race. They calculate the fuel required to run the race, then add some additional in case there are yellow flags. Extra fuel is additional weight. In one big sprint car race on TV, they actually stopped the cars on the track during the race to refuel them before the race could be completed. I had much rather have a large fuel tank and underfill it, than have a small tank and worry about running out of fuel. But that is just me!!

[apurplez28]

I have also seen many woo races lost because of guys blowing out thier r/r tire by choosing to go to soft , I guess they should outlaw that tire since the guys are taking a chance in running it and being fast early but not finishing... as someone said earlier, build a car that will finish!

[Rcer19]

hello gentleman,
i need to address a few things and a few people here,
1st off, Brockh, as far as my decision at Wileys to make it 4 minute mains, that was "my" decision and mine alone, i even talked to Craig that day and he was very adament about 5 min, mains and i went against it, and trust me it was a long hard decision, but i made it, and to be honest i still feel i made the wrong decision, but i will live with it,
and if you remember at the drivers meetings for both races so far, i have asked the drivers "ANY QUESTIONS COMMENTS OR COMPLAINTS" AND NO ONE SAYS A WORD, so everyone has a chance to voice their opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2nd, Jeff, yes i did put a post on here that mains would be 4 minutes, but upon talking with craig several times, It was decided that we keep with the Tour rules, i should have gotten back on here and changed the post but i have not had the time to get on here much lately, I feel bad the you ran out of fuel but if i am not mistaken i think you were one of the only people that ran out of fuel, and out of, what, 103 or 108 entries, thats not bad,
My main goal is to see that everyone is treated the same and treated fairly, i will listen to any problems or complaints you guys have, and try to explain this the best i can,
I hear guys saying that well, "i'll put in a bigger tank, or 3 ft of fuel line", if you do decide to do these things, then do not be pissed when i DQ you or will not pass the car for tech, lets not let it come to that, please,
As it is, i think i am alittle flexable with the rules now,
so just remember that the next race is 4 minute heats and 5 minute mains,
any questions please feel free to ask,
THANKS
NICK

[freeme]

Thanks Nick, Russ, and the Staubs had a great time for only my 3rd race every with a nitro car.

The fuel problem I didn't see a problem but i'm only used to 4 min. heats & mains.

Yes Nick you did ask for comments and nobody said anything but that is any race we will go to.

just my 2 cents and don't get mad just race and have fun.

Jeff Keller