dominator vs. touring car

[93TA]

anybody seen the 2 types of cars compete on the same track... are they anywhere near comparable(assuming similarly equiped)?

[Doug Carter]

I don't recall seeing these on the track ever together, but given the choice, I wouldn't look at a TC and I'd take a Dom every time. Light, less moving parts, wider, longer... holds 7 cells. :D

I'm sure a TC could be made just as fast, but I don't think it would ever handle nearly as well as a Dominator.

[93TA]

in this case they are all limited to 6 cells, and 19t motors. we're just trying to figure out if it is going to be an unfair advantage to let a couple of people run the dominators in a touring car late model class. there are many more tc based late models here than dominators(i've actually only ever heard stories of the dominators here, never even seen one of the guys that have them put them on the track)

[Doug Carter]

Hmmm, if they had the same motors and batteries, depending on the track size and surface, I still think I would take a Dom over the two, but I guess you don't know until you try it.

Physics alone would make me lean to the CW chain drive car, similar to why the smaller sprints don't care to race with the GT truck-based wide cars with big wheels and tires. In a bumping match, the Dominator should never lose. Also, the Dom bodies available could produce massive downforce over the TC late models. You may want to limit the wide cars to only a select few bodies with limited lexan side dams right off the bat to keep things consistent (Factory Works, McAllsiter, CW ProMods).

Keep in mind, this is only speculation based on experience. The only way to know for sure is to get two good cars out there, with the same driver, and run 4 minutes with each. You'll know really fast if the performance will be compatible.


d

[93TA]

agree with everything but the big sprint vs little sprint theory... in nitro i've seen more big sprints flip when contacting a little sprint than vice versa, and the same goes for elec truck vs elec. buggy... the truck tends to be the looser when they hit. keep in mind this is all with rubber tires.. perhaps with foams it is different... but i race at least 2 x's a week and see this happen fairly regularly. now if your talking an all out hack... yes the heavier/bigger car does more damage.... but i'm talking more incidental bumping.

[Race4ever]

Let them run on a trial basis and see for your self which is faster or time them in practice runs. When you get your results post which is faster.

[93TA]

i believe that is what we are going to do. and i'll definately let you guys know what the results are.

i just hope some of the dominator guys show. i'm afraid they have built up the unbeatable dominator reputation so high that they are almost afraid to run now for fear that they may not be able to uphold the reputation. i personally have no idea how they will stack up, but i've been hearing for years how nothing ever made now or in the past could touch them. but i'd love to see the 2 go at it!

[Race4ever]

Have a match race between two as an exhibition. If one or the other don't show they are considered the loser.

[Daryl Lane]

Depending on car counts run the CW cars with the sedans but score them in their own class. I think that the CW drivers will most likely not want to run with the touring cars because they will be faster and always looking for a way around the slower cars.

You could handy cap them, making them run slower motors to make the racing closer. Basically what you are talking about, would be the same as it would be in full scale if they let late model chassis' run with street stock chassis' all using the same motors.

[93TA]

if there is that much difference guys would not be happy running together. i think if any show we'll probably just let them run together and see how it goes, if it's too big a gap we'll seperate them.

[axis]

I would think that a dominator would kill a touring car. If for no other reason than vehicle stability..

[Brad Ferks]

Last year Nick and Myself took our Dominators and raced at a track up in Eau Claire Wi. The Shorthalf Raceway is the name of the place. About a 225' run line. They have a weekly field of mod touring cars that they run and talked us into coming up to race with them. If memory serves we upped the track record with our Dominators by 7-8 laps and were up to .75 seconds faster per lap. I dont remember the exact lap counts and would have to dig through some old notes. In comparison the touring cars were running low single digit winds and we were running 11's and 12 turns. The dom still carries a LOT more corner speed and is a more efficient drive train than a late model touring car, but is still a fragile piece in comparison. We were pretty sure that the cars had a few more laps in them, but because of limited practice time we were scrambling just to get the cars in the ballpark. I will say that the overtake speeds on a narrow track were pretty insane and when you misjudged the pass it got ugly a few times. Perhaps Captain Full Body will catch this thread and interject something I forgot about.

Brad F

[93TA]

great info... exactly what i was looking for! thx

[GaRacer]

I think the Dominator would be too much for a TC3 in the turns and coming out of the turn. If you have never seen a Dominator, they have no slip anywhere, have front oneways. I think you could add the front oneway to a TC3 and a spool in the rear and get the TC3 there with them, but that is just a guess on my part. I don't know how much difference in weight the 2 cars would be, and body issues would have to be addressed, as someone mentioned above, some of the Dominator bodies had mega downforce on them, you could use different bodies to tune the cars, more front or rear downforce as needed, can't do that with the sedan, not enough selection. But it would be interesting to see a match race between a Dominator and a TC3 set up with the oneways and a spool in the rear, shaft drive is pretty dang efficient in itself, much better than a belt, I the belt drives would be backmarkers.

[RCB3]

I have raced my TC3 against a Dominator and out ran it, but that could be just driver and track time. I like the amount of suspensin travel the TC has especially on a rough track over the Dom.
I suggest using one style of body for all and try to get weight close by weighing them both and using the heavier of the two as a minimum.

[DrOlds]

Don't Dominators use a lot bigger tires than sedans? If so would putting them all on the same tires narrow the gap?

[4wd#9Nick]

We ran the same size tires as the touring cars. The smaller the better in most cases. In the right hands the Dominator has the advantage. Less Drag and it was designed to turn left. The few times we raced against the TC3's wasnt pretty. Our corner speed was awesome. The dominators were designed in 1986 and are still fast today. They do need a tad more attention inbetween rounds to maintain the moving parts. Good luck in the grudge match and let us know your results.

[93TA]

yes the dom tires are typically bigger. in nitro we run tc late mods both with std tc size wheels/tires and 200-210mm late mod bodies, as well as some guys run buggy size foams or cw foams and the wider cw style late mod bodies. from what we have seen neither setup appears to be superior to the other for nitro tc late mods.

[smitty]

The TC3 has the potential to whoop up on a dominator with a few changes, wheel bace, track width etc.

Someone should work on a oval conversion for the TC3.

Just my thoughts.

[J Rogers]

I'll Put My Money On The Dominator. Seen Em Both On The Track At Same Time And Touring Car To Wild To Drive.

[bolognarc]

Put the CW adapters on tc3 & use the CW rears on all four corners & you have one quick AE! We run ntc3 like that & they are usually the fastest overall lap times of any class.

[g_rod22x]

Not even close. If the Dominator stays together...TCs dont stand a chance...I have had it handed to me while driving both TC3 late models and a XXXs late model....this was on foam tires .....open modified...8/10 turn motors..and on tracks ranging from Ruperts bull ring at the dump...Finger Lakes and I think Modstock.......all the yank in the world wont make up for the superior corner speed of the purpose built CW car..
.

[Jack Gray]

My money is on the Dominator. I have a TC set up for the dirt oval and it is quick but my Dominator is much faster. The CW car is more stable and carries a ton more corner speed.

[Brad Ferks]

Oh there is no question that a shaft drive car built for dirt oval would be a better way to go than the chain drive. Everyone who's tossed a chain will vouch for that, but then you're going to be up there with the other gripe about the venerable Dom. $$$ Start with a $280 touring car kit, add what I would guess would be at least $300 of parts (New custom built chassis, arms, universals, longer driveshaft, uprights suspension mounts, motor mounts, controll links, etc) and you would have a car that would hand the dom its proverbial head on a platter. Unless you have the resources Chad does its a strech and a ton of hand built or adapted parts for the rest of us for a class that at best has a cult following today. The sad thing is with the way the batteries are now there isnt a better time to look at the advantages of 4wd mod again. I will note that a couple years ago at Coopers while those of us in the "retro" 4wd Mod class didnt post the fastest 4 minute run of the weekend, we were the only class that finished the a-main with multiple cars on the same lap count that the TQ of the weekend posted. We all had more left in the cars we just didn't have the time or parts to get them there.

Brad F

[GaRacer]

Brad, I don't know how many here remember running on 1200 batteries for a 4 minute race, we never geared for speed, it was geared to run 4 minutes, hopefully, then the 1400 and 1700 batteries, with these things out there now, 4wd mod would be a blast. But I agree, TC3 can't run with a Dominator out of the box, but given the time and resources I think it would be competitive with one. As for thorwing chains, I ran them a good bit, never lost one.

[GaRacer]

Tim you ever seen a 10 turn Dominator on 7 cells run without ever lifting? With a lap race instead of a minute race you could gear for all out speed and not worry about dumping.

[Brad Ferks]

Ooo here come the memories from the old school crowd. SCE packs ya would charge once a day at a low amp rate. Pre-silicone tire days, Mod races where you would pull the throttle like there was an egg under the trigger because if you yanked it you would run out of juice at the 3 minute mark of the race.... How times have changed.

Now we dont even see wedge classes at most tracks, Gas powered cars are all the rage, batteries on loan from god that the everyman can buy off the shelf....

I did run a 7cell dom with a 10x2 on silicones with a phantom wedge during a late night practice at coopers during the open wheel a few years back just for old times sake. Was a blast. and did draw applause from a number of people. I think I did have to remove a chain link after that though. Streched the chain out pretty bad.

BF

[David Butts]

Yikes! I dont think I've ever seen a post get so many replies in such a short time in the two years I've been looking at this site. I own one of the Dominators that Larry (93ta)is refering too. And yes I'm from the old school of drive it like a baby till the three minute mark, I started racing electrics when the best batteries available were 1000 mah G.E's.

4wd mod was never a huge class in Fl but it did have it's diehards. My car was last on any track anywhere in 1994 and it was bought in late 88 I think. It still to this day has every original part it came with on it except the bearings which didnt last long on the dusty tracks it was run on and the main chain which as mentioned before it threw an wadded up into an unuseable mess.

Speaking of batteries. Just two weeks ago I cleaned out one of my boxes and threw away about twenty five or so 6 and 7 cell packs. Yellow 1200's, Yellow 1700's, red 1400's, Black 1700's and the worst batteries that I have personally ever seen in the r/c business, The purple Panasonic 1700's.

I was sitting back tossing down a few one night and I wondered to myself what 4wd mod would've been like in the old days if we'd had the batteries that anyone can buy now.

Well I may just find out. Only in practice though.

[93TA]

i look forward to seeing it run david!

[GaRacer]

We use to have about 15 Dominators that ran regular in the Atlanta area, but that was in the days of 125 racers every Sat night. Silicone tires, indoor racing and 1400 batteries, those were the days.

[bolognarc]

Monty we missed you Saturday. We had 49 racers which is pretty good for a points race.

[Dlan44]

Larry, the only way I see you can even come close to equalizing the cars is to weigh a competetive on the track TC3, and make that the minimum weight. If the Dominator guys are willing to add the weight, it may close the performance gap. The Dominator will have still the edge on rolling resistance. If the TC3 is just as light, the only option left is to limit the size of the side dams on the chain drive cars. That may equalize the corner speeds. If you keep working at it, you may come up with a equalizer that is fair. I am all for letting the old cars run (including the Superior SRP1)............as long as the playing field is level.

[GaRacer]

Couple of reasons I didn't make it up, kinda rainy and its a long drive for me when we might get rained out and my boat club was having a big thing going on, so I just stayed in town. Should be there for the next one though. Might try to get up Monday even.

[jherzog]

I don't log on for a few days and we are two pages deep.

I ran Dominators from 86 or 88 (can't remember which one) until the class died. The first one I bought was when Custom Works was still located in Apple Valley.

Brad, charging SCE packs once a day. I remember having to wait a week in between charges. What a pain in the butt when you ran multiple classes and needed packs for each one. Glad those days are gone.

I remember having to learn to drive at barely any throttle to save the batteries, hoping to make time, and then having it dump anyway. I was going to throw out some more memories, screw the memories, we all know the stories and remember those days. They are gone, let's move on.

Regarding the TC3 vs. Dominator debate. Not even close, the Dom will whoop it. Rebuild the TC completely as Brad said and I still think the Dom will smack it down. With a shaft drive you will be losing power through the gear drives at each end. Yes chains come off occasionally. However, once I mastered chain guide construction, I never really had a problem after that. The chain will naturally fold over the sprocket so there is very little resistance there. I do have to say that doing a complete rebuild will level the field somewhat considering batteries are really not an issue anymore. The downside to the Dom is the upkeep and the frailty when impacting another object.

But man, they are cool!

[rythemchaos04]

I would love to get the guy's at the track to run dominators, I know of only three at r/c maina in AZ, I have two of them fire breathing missels waiting to make a re apperence...

any one local in Az???

[RCB3]

I remember the 1200s and then the 1400s.

I had my TC3 setup with a 19 turn and I didn't have to lift.
Why build a custom chassis for a Tc especially if you use one that is left sided already?

[ascjunky]

hay kevin if you ever ran a dom you would know why a tc3 needs alot of work to run with a dom
you could have a 10 turn and run wide open all the way around

[RCB3]

hay kevin if you ever ran a dom you would know why a tc3 needs alot of work to run with a dom
you could have a 10 turn and run wide open all the way around


I'll have to wait and find out here soon.

[DrOlds]

I'll just have to bring out my LTO XX4 and put the spank on both of you! HA!

[Klowne]

i could see a 4wd offroad car having a better chance of giving a dom a run for its money...... just dont really see a touring car doing it unless the dom breaks...... otherwise the dom should beat it just about every time on the track unless i guess you make the track have say 10 foot long straightaways so you dont need to rely on speed lol

[Brad Ferks]

just for grins I threw down a 10x2 6 cell dom against Nitro sprinters this last weekend and came away with laps .3 a second quicker than the nitro cars were.. I still just dont see a TC getting it done.

BF

[4wd#9Nick]

I also threw my Dom down Saturday in practice and indeed much faster than my nitro sprint, but that was expected. There was a nitro TC3 late model there, but not even close to the electric dominator. Good job to Brad on floating the throttle and making the 5 minute run with the fastest run of the evening. His car looked so smooth and it had awesome corner speed. The track was on the rough side and the dominator soaked it up.

[trackchampion]

After reading all the discussion on this topic the only problem I see is that everyone keeps bringing up the TC3 as the comparing car. The TC3 and NTC3 are almost a has been in the world of rc racing exept for oval, and it still is not that impressive on the oval from what Ive seen. Im am from Tampa FL and race off road, on road, and oval every blue moon, and I think, from having a dom and just about every other car out there, if you used a different car you could run with or out run the dom no problem. There are to many other cars out there that are above the TC3 to just use it as the primary car. Most people dont know because the cars are very expensive, unlike the TC3 which you can pick up for practically nothing, but then again speed is all about how much your going to spend. Thats just my opinion.

[93TA]

troy,
actually the reason most use the ntc3 for latemods is that its shaft drive... u dont have to worry as much about the dirt getting in it. i ran my serpent on dirt oval for a while, and while i had no issues with the belts, it was much harder to keep clean and free rolling, compared to the ld3 i run now.

[GaRacer]

I have to disagree with the idea that a serpent or one of the other high end cars would outrun the dominator. Belts are an inefficient way to transfer power and in an electric race, with the same type batteries would be in big trouble against a dominator, which has no slip and a much more efficent drive system. I have no experience with the belt drive cars, just machinery in general and belt drives are not the ticket.

[Doug Carter]

Agreed, the NTC3 and TC3 are still quality cars. They didn't get slower than the new cars just because something new came out. People are still winning with NTC3s every weekend, and the TC3 is still a very good car. I have been around RC for a long time, and there is nothing new under the sun in touring cars that is leaps and bounds ahead of a TC3, which is still a benchmark for touring cars.

Show me 1 touring car that is so different from a TC3 that it will keep up with a Dominator on a dirt oval, and I'll put the restored SRP-1 on the track for the first time to prove you VERY wrong. Belt drive or shaft drive, it isn't gonna happen.

To build an oval-specifc TC that even remotely has a chance of hanging with a Dominator, you might keep the drivetrain and gearboxes, using a solid rear axle and a front one-way, and you'll need all new arms, a new chassis and much less weight. Even if Chad the mad scientist is concocting a "Dom Killer," I don't see it really being much of the original touring car.

[David Butts]

troy,
actually the reason most use the ntc3 for latemods is that its shaft drive... u dont have to worry as much about the dirt getting in it. i ran my serpent on dirt oval for a while, and while i had no issues with the belts, it was much harder to keep clean and free rolling, compared to the ld3 i run now.

Larry, It was good to put a face and a handshake with the screen name. Now I saw firsthand how well Larry's LD3 got around the Ocala dirt track last saturday. Those nitro cars sure look fun but my interests are still voltage inspired. I didnt have electronics in My Dominator but I showed around to a couple of people while there including Larry. The real end to this debate will be as it always is, On the track. Lap times tell the story not bench racing.

The cars would have to be equipped with the same motors, batteries, gearing and tires to be a true test. Also I have never seen the Dom's run like the touring based cars are in Ocala today, Thats without the side dams. Bring on the side dams Ocala guys. ???

The newer cars being smaller as in, Narrower and shorter will have less aerodynamic effect than the much larger bodied chain driven cars.

I think in all fairness that in Ocala's interests the class should remain intact as touring based only and if anyone else has a Dominator/SRP1 bring'em out to show what 4wd dirt oval used to be like. Oh yeah, I have my TC3 latemodel in the paint shop right now.

I'll be getting me some of that action. Weeeeeeeeeeeee

[jherzog]

The cars would have to be equipped with the same motors, batteries, gearing and tires to be a true test.

I would disagree on this. No one ever said it is a test of the same motors, batteries, etc in different cars. This discussion was about smacking a touring car down with a dominator. The car should run what it was desgined to run. That is, what makes it the fastest it can be and last the length of the race.

[93TA]

David,

yes it was nice to meet you as well! always cool to meet the guys you talk to on the boards. if you can, you should try and make it to race 2 of the series at eastbay next month. we have some guys here who have dominators... maybe we can talk them into puttin on an exhibition race at eastbay at the series race.

[-==MMackey27==-]

If the touring car can even hang with either an SRP-1 or Dominator, it's impressive enough for how much cheaper they are and for how they're not purpose-designed to the task. That alone is enough to make them impressive.

Yet I have to admit I hate the drawing of the comparison between the TC and the AWD dirt oval cars of ages past. The Touring car is a mode of transport, a potential "trojan horse" into the RC dirt oval realm to get more people involved. Envisioning what to do with them isn't the idea. They're fine as-is. Throw a modern late model (no sideboards) or an economy modified body (i.e. IMCA/UMP/etc.) on one, perhaps add a rally kit if necessary, and you're done. That's what... maybe $50-70 add-on to a car you can find for cheap and in abundance? I mean you can toss in different diffs (front one-way, etc.) as well that add onto it, but it's still cheaper than a lot of other classes. The fact that new AWD touring kits cost almost 1/2 of what a Custom Works 2WD GBX car costs is impressive as well. When you talk used... with supply/demand, you can get a solid and competitive TC3 for peanuts. Even used Enforcers and Intimidator and Terminator kits, of gearbox and direct drive varieties, are pretty expensive in comparison.

The SRP-1 and Dominator are neither one garnering much sales, while TC's fly off shelves for their various purposes, whether backyard beatings, competitive on-road competition, or to be converted into something else. The advantage is when someone gets tired of playing with their TC3 and yearns for a TC4 or HPI Pro 4 or Losi or whatever, you can pick up a raceable TC3 on eBay that's still competitive and dirt cheap. That's what RC dirt oval needs. For the cost of 1 Dominator, you can probably purchase 3-4 raceable TC's on eBay and get some area buddies to race with you by being not just a racer, but a car owner. More faces is what RC dirt oval needs. If it was more speed... direct drive 2WD and esp. AWD cars like Dominators and SRP-1's would have gearbox classes beaten by a country mile. If I'm not mistaken... the GBX cars were Custom Works focus this time? Superior Racing Products isn't around and kicking, finding an SRP-1 is like finding a needle in a haystack, and the majority of RC tracks don't have Dominators and SRP-1's in competition much anymore. The costs and upkeep (largely due to speed) have killed these cars... just like the costs of anything outlaw ultimately end up killing it with time.

So keeping these 2 classes of cars separate is imperative. They're completely different classes, with completely different intents. Could you make a TC3 or TC4 or HPI Pro4 or Tamiya Surikaarn Limited competitive with a Dominator or SRP-1? If you throw enough $ and engineering mindset at a problem, you can do darn near anything you want. Yet what's the point? Noone's buying the originals in enough capacity anymore to make it a worthwhile endeavor. How much $ are you going to waste beating the original only to have something that isn't saleable? If it's for bragging rights... whatever puts a rise in your Levis I guess, go for it. Yet I think building a new sprint kit or a GSX or GBX competitor is probably more viable and profitable.

I think the TC's biggest asset is that they're cheap and plentiful, and they can serve a purpose within the dirt oval community by default (limited upgrades that yield big performance gains, most TC stuff is more show than go, all 'bout *BLING*). Dynamically no RC car remotely matches any of the real cars... so comparing a rear or mid motor electric or gas touring car or converted buggy/truck to a full scale late model, modified, or sprint doesn't really yield any similarities regardless of motor mount and wheels driven. For the $, dollar per dollar, I'd take a 4WD touring car with a modern bodied late model (no sideboards, only rear spoilers) or econo-modified body over anything else. If the Dominator can make a comeback... I think it should do it on it's own, not by relying on touring cars to fill the field and play second-fiddle to it. If it's that important... Custom Works will build a touring car capable Dominator-inspired car themselves. Considering we're all still awaiting the much talked about midget and Super modified, I sincerely hope that, that comes to light lonnnng before the CW TC day arises, if ever. I'm not sure Custom Works needs to enter the dirt TC market, because I think it'd do more harm than good for the class, and therefore the sport overall. If they do anything for TC's, the extent of it should be bodies and that's it IMHO.

[Animal]

this is great!!!!

A car that was developed 18 to 20 years ago, and named the Dominatior by Jerry, and Brian Landgraf. is still the topic, and still the car that all are trying to compete against and beat.

I guess with that said, why not just buy the best, and race. it wont take the competition very long and Dominators will be the fastest car on the track again.

just another kicker to the Langraf era, the Enforcer sprint car 15 years old and still the most copied car, and the car to beat at the track.

[J Rogers]

DITO! What Animal said

[Brad Ferks]

It is totally true that the Dom and a TC are two seperate classes of cars. What baffles me a bit is how the TC with a late model body hasn't taken off as a great entry level class to grow dirt oval?!? As mentioned you can pick up used cars very resonably online and can get brand new cars for a little over $200. Add an inexpensive late model body and you have a great near spec class which would be a great place to learn chassis and tire setup. Dont let the tires and motors get out of hand with it, and keep the racing close and people will come back. If you let one or two veteran oval racers in this class who can handle a hot motor and use the expensive gummy tires and you run off your new blood) This is a class that the paved/carpet oval guys have been screaming for. An inexpensive way to get new people in. The ones that really get into it will move into the sprint cars and edm's and what have you on their own as their talent and intrest grow. From a scale appearance standpoint (and a track size requirement standpoint knowing there are a lot more little bull rings than big speedways out there) A TC late model is a much better fit than a stadium truck. (Not to offend all the truck fans out there because they are often the backbone class at many tracks) Whatever happened to the proposed new late model molds that were talked about a long time ago from CW? I know McAllister has 2 great appearing late models, and the Factory Works body is slick as well. Just wish we saw more of them. I love my Dom, but would gladly put it on the shelf to see more people racing dirt oval on the whole. I already know that even though they are quick cars, at this time they probably do more harm for the hobby than good. As I've said before, we don't need technology to make the cars faster so fewer people can drive them. We need cars that promote more close fun racing for EVERYONE.

BF

[Daryl Lane]

Hey Brad

Right on - Entry level classes is what we are all about at Factory WORKS right now - new blood and more racers at the track every race day. GROWTH GROWTH GROWTH. :D ;)

Like you said an old or new touring car and a body and you have 4whd dirt oval. And I do not want to hear about SHOCKS TOO SHORT no tires, bah bah bah :o did I say that, for dirt oval. Because a few years back, five of us old school off road racers took touring cars - first gen all of them - talking Yokomo YR4's - to the local off-road track (M&M Hobbies of Reedy Race fame) changed oil and springs, unscrewed the ends on the shock shafts for more ride height and went off roading. Top qualifier in our class out qualified the 2 WHD stock TQ!! Granted; Dave could drive a brick - but the cars worked and did not break. No special belt covers shocks or tires, just treaded street tires, and we all had a blast.



So I know touring cars could be a HOOT in dirt oval. Still run the CW cars and let the touring car racers get a taste of speed while in the pits.



I think 19 turn motor class with a spec tire picked by the local racers and go to it, electric, nitro or both.



And just for the record, this is happening at a lot of tracks around the country.



My three cents.

:D :D

[DrOlds]

Marcus Mackey-you're my hero! Brad and Daryl get the big picture too!

I'll share whats been going on at our local dirt oval-Checkered Flag raceway.We started the season with a Hobby Stock class.Sedans with 19 turn motors,rally or buggy tires,and vintage bodies-55 Chevy,69 Camaro,ect.The idea was a cheap,fun class.It turned out that they were really hard to set up and drive with the "brick" bodies so we decided to make them late models.At the same time some of the racers were wanting to run their Dominators so the class was changed to any 4 wheel drive,19 turn,wedge bodies with 7-1/2" max side dams.This past sunday we ran them for the first time with the wedge bodies.Before a good run would have been 38-39 laps.In the first heat with the new bodies the TQ was 47 laps-3 laps more than the mod EDM record.This was all with TC's-no Dominators have shown up yet.And Daryl is right-ANY sedan is fine-my Street Weapon keeps up with the TC3's no problem and we even have a 4tec in the class.A wedge body and a set of rally tires is all you need.Our's is more of a "loose" track,I would guess that on a foam tire track that regular on-road tires would be fine.They also work fine with a pretty normal on-road setup-rally springs are actually way too soft(I tried it).Also-they get around the track just great without a side dam! I ran mine in practice with a 2" spoiler and no side dam and it was fast and easy to drive,but everyone else wanted them so we have them.With the side dams they are way faster,and even easier to drive,but it is probably going to end up being a horsepower war with them because they are sooo hooked up.I am looking forward to seeing what happens when the Dominators hit the track,esp since 4 wheel drive buggies will be there with them.

TC late models are the best thing for an entry level class-they are so much easier to drive than trucks.They are perfect for close competitive side by side racing on a budget and are very forgiving to minor deficiencies in setup.If you want a good entry level and FUN class,leave the side dams off and you've got it.If you want them to be the new "fast class",put side dams on them and all the "fast guys" will run them because they will be the fastest cars.As far as the Dom vs. TC debate,we will have to wait and see.It seems like no one has run a Dominator since before 2000 cells came out so it's kind of like debating whether Tony Stewart is a better driver than David Pearson was-different times,different equipment.

Making cars that turn faster lap times in no way makes for better racing-it looks like that was proven by the Dominator years ago.


My 4 cents-I'm high bidder!

[Daryl Lane]

My 4 cents-I'm high bidder!

OK, I've got to put the little gray cells to work and see if I can come up with 5 cents worth, can't let you get out front that cheap! LOL

In the past trucks were the entry level because of the number seating on benches at home in the garage, there are still allot if not more out there --- But just think of the touring car sales of the last five or six years, that is a BUNCH of potential Dirt Oval Racers out there just waiting to be asked to come out to play and bend some Late Model Lexan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh YA!

But Of Course there is aways that sly manufacturer waiting there in the wings to try make something / anything faster .....:eek: :eek: :eek: Mod class the next step.

Wait a minute I smell something burning?? :confused: -------:skull: OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...

[Daryl Lane]

Cleared the smoke and had another brain Fr--,

As I see it the idea is not to give those already racing dirt oval another class to run and dominate in. But to give the would be new bee's to dirt oval a place to start and not spend any more money doing it. Then once they've tried it and like it "who wouldn't!" - they can step it up and spend some more money if they want to.

I've talked more then one dirt oval beginner into not buying my products before going out with a stock truck for a month or so and tring "oval" in stock or novice to see if they like it before spending the money.

Most come back happy they tried it and ready to step it up and try to go faster.
I mean faster is more fun right? "I" always need (want) more HORSE POWER!!!:D

[Daryl Lane]

Am I at 5 cents yet or just 4.5 cents??:confused:

[pumbaapig5]

Hey first timer. be gentle please.
I race in N.W. Washington on a clay oval. 205' drive line.
We started a new class 4wd. I found a dominator that just begged to be run. I was told heavy springs on tc3 shocks was the ticket. I ran reds on front and gold on back. The loosed car I have ever driven. We have to run touring or sport car bodies. NO WEDGES! I am running a killer dodge viper off of a rs4 super nitro. It fits and looks great. What can I do to tighten it up? Maybe blue front and green rear springs?
Please let me know.
P.S. I will try to get our clubs info on the site by next weekend.
Club vice president N.O.R.A. Northwest, oval,R/C association

[Doug Carter]

Wow, a Dominator without a wedge body. Never seen it done before. That car likes downforce, so it's hard to tell where to go with it. As for springs and shock setups, I don't recall ever having seen one needing or running TC shocks. In my experience, they NEVER needed large volume shocks. I would stay with the stock Deltas, personally.

You probably will have to do all of your own R&D with the car as it is now, because with no wedge bodies for downforce, no side dams, and touring car shocks, you're in a world all your own. Sounds like in this case, a touring car would be easier to set up and race. They definitely put handcuffs on anyone who wants to run a Dominator, that's for sure.

With all of the great late model bodies out there for TCs, why not let those run and actually LOOK like dirt oval cars? I never understood the sedan/sports body thing on dirt ovals. :confused:

[rythemchaos04]

I own 2 dominators and wish any local tracks would run them, but getting all the drivers togather to run them is like pulling teeth. I know of about 3-4 guy's that have them but don't want to put them on the track because they have a hard time building the class.

I agree with just about everyone who thinks dominators where and are king of the 4wd dirt oval class. But where are those people come race day I bearly ever see them....

I guess what Im saying is whats the good of having them If no one shows up.

as far as the TC based cars please keep them in a class of there own. my reason for this is would you run a gas car with electric? I don't think so. so why run a TC with a dominator?

they are two cars designed for totaly different racing. I wouldn't say dont run them cause I do think this would be foolish of me racing is racing and dirt is for racing pavment gets you there. so run the TC's in there own dirt oval class with there own body and motor rules.

thanks all.....

[93TA]

we're not going to run them together. there are very few dominators around here compared to touring car late models. we have been running the touring car late model in our area for about 4 years now. in those 4 year of running of tc late models, we have had 1 guy show up w/ a dominator and just run 1 pack through for a practice, and then we had 1 guy who they actually let race for several weeks in the tc late model class.. but he did not fare well, he seemed to break all the time and finally gave up on the car, but he was never any real threat to dominate(whether that was due to setup/driver skill, i dont know. this time there were 2 guys in particular that were considering dusting off the dominators, and we at first thought it would be fine to let them run together just so they could run, but since i posted this question we decided they should not run together. i beileve some of the dominator guys may run an exhibition race at the summer nats.

[-==MMackey27==-]

Marcus Mackey-you're my hero! Brad and Daryl get the big picture too!

If you had asked me if I'd have anyone say that 2-3 years ago on here, I'd have told you you were crazy. LoL I'm still sort of in disbelief that I'm seeing someone say anything like that.

...With the side dams they are way faster,and even easier to drive,but it is probably going to end up being a horsepower war with them because they are sooo hooked up.I am looking forward to seeing what happens when the Dominators hit the track,esp since 4 wheel drive buggies will be there with them.

Agreed. But beyond that... you have the reality deal to cope with. Wedge cars died in full scale. I mean DEAD. There are a few exhibition events run, but even the biggest attempt to date to make a big show for the cars in Tennessee with a big purse was a bust. Most fans went for the novelty of it, but the general concensus was... the racing with the regular "modern" late models of today was better. There was even an article in National Dirt Digest written by Brian McLeod that spelled it out clear as a bell. Too much speed, too much grip, no slowing down to provide an overtaking moment (I call this the Dave Despain Wind Tunnel theory) on the track. It was like the dirt oval version of what Formula One has become. Yes the cars are badfast, the technology wicked, but is there anything remotely entertaining about them besides the sheer speed and ingenuity? We're not talking about a winged sprint car that is tossable. We're talking about a super long, super wide, super tall skyscraper on wheels. The wedge cars are faster than sprints... but they're not as exciting. Even there... give me USAC or BMARA or some non-winged series any day. Beyond the novelties... real racing is better without wings.

NoRightTurn from 4m.net who also went by I believe, aegrimonia or something like that on here on Dirtoval.com lived in the last area where Wedge cars were prevalent. That was until 2005. They're now officially dead at Williamette, Oregon replaced by the modern East Coast LM with series' like the Budweiser I-5 Championship and the Colorado Racing Association luring these guys in. That's before you count that more and more of the West coast boys are coming East to see what the fuss of this Knoxville Lucas Oil Nationals and the Dream and World 100 are all about. You can't do them with a wedge car, they're illegal.

There are those that get a twinkle in their eye over what these cars could do. They truly were a spectacle to see, much like the Dominator and SRP-1 are to those who've seen them. What remains though is that while they are waycool, and they do have their shored up place in full-scale and RC dirt oval history, and they do things that no other car can and likely will never repeat... there's too few of them anymore and too few willing to bust them out and run them again (killing their pocketbook) to make it a viable class. So while they were Dominators... they're now Extinct-in-ators largely because their time has come and gone. Wicked though they were and still are... so was the Tyrannosaurus Rexx. It's not nearly as popular a creature anymore either in today's realm of things. The similarities are quite startling if you think about it.

Making cars that turn faster lap times in no way makes for better racing-it looks like that was proven by the Dominator years ago.

Yeah, and that's before you come down to the costs. You're talking a car that costs almost $600 out of the box just for a roller. A car that lives for downforce and loves the fastest motors and juiciest batteries you can plug into them. A car that has such tremendous cornering speed that if and when you collide with something, you're going to be out there with the corner marshall picking up parts. That's not to say that the cars aren't stout or built well... that's to say that even the stoutest car under this amount of speed is going to be brutal in an impact. You're basically talking of a money pit on wheels.

A lot of people have seen me make commentaries with regards to Custom Works and the other scratch built cars. The reason i do and have, isn't because they don't make a fine car... it's because they've outreached the scope and intents of the userbase and especially the "POTENTIAL" userbase typically and that's why the sport has been stuck in a rut IMHO. I don't see them keeping the sport alive, I see them keeping the current wave of the sport on life support and in many ways... preventing more economical outlets to take off through staunch inabilities for some people to let go of their conceptions of what a dirt oval car is and should be. I keep hearing the words "Heyday" and "Custom Works, Superior Racing Products, C&M Mfg Nemesis, Trinity Reflex-10., Kyosho Slingshot, etc. etc." and the reality is... that wasn't the truth. The truth was...

Remember all of the JG Mfg. conversion kits for RC10's? Remember all of the RCRC Ascot Sprints and Big Boy Toys Sprint cars? Remember the McAllister lowering kits for RC10's? Remember Advance Chevrons? That to me was the heyday of the sport... because it brought people in en masse because it was cheap and easy to throw together a competitive dirt oval car and go racing. You bought a $100 add-on kit for a $150 RC10 threw on a $20 body and went racing with the radios and electrics you had. It made the market that caused the purpose-built and extremely expensive kits to take over because there was a base of people big enough to warrant building one of these cars for. The "better mouse trap" that in the right hands would run rings around even the most innovative cobbled together buggy-based rockets people put together. I mean... hell... Trinity and Kyosho, both mainstream RC companies... hell one is even Japanese!! A country where dirt oval goes together with... nothing in their culture!!! They both built dirt oval kits for a time because the market was potentially hot enough for it. Do you see that today?!?

If you didn't have one... you were left to either getting one, or getting out of the sport. There was a potential to custom engineer something to blow away what was already out there and already serving the people well, a better mouse trap that cost a lot more, made everything prior almost obsolete without going back to the drawing board and spending some cash, and basically pushed a lot of people out of the sport due to costs. Some were more gradual than others, but the sport all but died as a result of that whole situation. Worse yet... it kept a lot of people on the outside looking in that loved dirt oval racing and wanted to be a part, but couldn't sensibly see themselves spending $450 or more to get in with something that dynamically wasn't any more realistic than what the old RC10's with lowering kits were. Faster yes... but speed isn't everything.

The lack of interest by the media? Simple. People looked at the sport, drooled, went ga-ga, saw the pricetags, and fled like a scalded cat. I've shown people the cars, their interest peaked, then showed 'em the pricetag and witnessed the "HOLY %^#@!" myself enough times to know the truth. Most of the mainstream products within the RC hobby are relatively cheap. Touring cars, despite having boatloads of available hop-up parts (that you can buy gradually), are relatively inexpensive compared to the cheapest purpose-built dirt oval kits. Even the Factory Team TC3 with all of it's bells and whistles undercuts the Intimidator and Enforcer brand new, much less the more mechanically similar (i.e. AWD) Dominator. Most people that were in RC back in the day consider 4WD buggies and car kits like the BMW's or Cadillacs and Mercedes Benz of the hobby, so AWD for that cheap is amazing to them. Buggies... are downright dirt cheap, and work great within racing environments or for backyard bashing, either/or. The most expensive cars that take off... monster trucks... and they just have an allure of their own because of the sheer size. Yet most of us could buy a TMAXX or one of the competitors for less than a Dominator. Price them. You'll see what I mean. Funny thing on the media... Radio Control Car Action, the most entrenched and subscribed to magazine of them all, *FINALLY* did some dirt oval coverage after all of the bad-mouthing and angst of the fanbase here. Funny that the touring car should sit front and center with the other 2? I think someone gets it... someone that deep down might've been pulled through the ringer time and again by people in our sport (yours truly included), but someone that can see what the sport was, what it became, and what it could truly be again. I think that, that touring car is the centerfold of a trio that they saw as the second coming, and that is ultimately why they published it.

There's little cheap about this sport. Little that is identifiable with the real full-scale sport, little that until people like Gary McAllister (ironic, don't you think? ;)) and Daryl Lane (and Bolink and Parma to an extent) brought out new bodies... little that was "modern" and fresh without work to make it just that. You need that scale correlation to draw fans of the real sport in. A lot of the RC dirt oval guys love the full-scale sport, but a lot of them may not hardly trek to a full scale track at all or care who half of the real racers are or know much of anything about the cars. You can look on 4m.net and other places and see fans going rabid over the full-scale sport, knowing the intricacies, down to the different suspensions and chassis', and in much larger #'s than you'd probably expect even for something that is still but a small piece of the overall motorsports piechart. Many of which carry it into a passion for online racing with their computer. Many who carry this passion into collection of static-model diecast replicas of the real cars. Why can't RC draw these people in?

Costs.

It's as simple as that. The cheap cars at the RC dirt oval tracks don't typically draw any interest to your diehard late model and modified and sprint car fans. The cars they are enamored by... cost you $450 or more just for the kit. That's not counting radios, receivers, servos, speed controls, battery packs, engines, motors, chargers, starter boxes, fuel, tires, tools, etc. etc. for whichever path you elect to travel. It's part of why you don't see an RC street stock class taking off. How many full scale tracks do you go to where the grandstands aren't practically empty after the late model and economy modified features or big block modified or sprint and midget and Silver Crown features are over? Fans flock to see the top classes, they drool over the top classes and the speed and competitive side by side racing they provide. I watch a lot of street stock and modified and hornet and other class of cars run, and I get enjoyment... but the mass of the sport doesn't. A Truck class, while economical, while having it's fanbase in RC, while being available in large numbers... just isn't going to suit these people. There's little you can do to a truck that's not going to make it look like a truck with <body style here> sitting on top of it. A touring car with a late model body or econo mod body on it... doesn't look so much like a touring car anymore. It looks like a late model or econo mod. It becomes one visually and at the cost of $20-40 of lexan. Trucks just don't do that no matter how you slice it. It's a great class, don't get me wrong, much as the classic coupes are... but without that correlation, your fanbase is typically going to glaze over and go onto something else.

Touring cars change all of this. They're economical. They're practical. You get a lot for the $, and can buy one "new" and not have to trust someone else on a used product that could be missing pieces for a reasonable price, or take your chances on eBay and walk away with a stellar car for peanuts because of the supply/demand factor. They can be adaptable, morphing into other types of cars exceptionally well with a simple body change. They can be run without aero aids and handle well because of the drivelines they have. You don't really have to do a lot to make them a raceable option, and with proper rules you might not have to do much of anything other than do a body swap and a change of tires and go racing. You can make them identifiable to the real *CURRENT* cars via a plethora of well-designed bodies that are out there. That correlation, that affordability... it's what makes them a gem. They truly are the golden goose that's laying golden eggs left and right. The sad deal is... I'm not sure if a lot of people in this sport truly get that. The truists are scared of change and skeptical in a lot of ways... and the fact that the DODC Tour doesn't have them in their ranks from my best recollection (correct me if I'm wrong Craig or someone?)... only seeks to hurt the great potentials this class has to blow things wide open for the sport.

I hear the reasons why they're not adopted more and I chuckle. "Well they're AWD, the real cars aren't" Okay... well the real cars aren't mid or rear motor/engine, they're not powered by 7 sub-C cell batteries or nitro-methane racing fuel. They don't run 2 strokes in the real cars. The real cars don't use independant rear suspensions. The real cars use stagger which few if any of the RC cars do anymore. The fact is... dynamically, the RWD cars in RC aren't anymore close to the real cars than an AWD touring car. Without aero aids or hardcore motor/battery restrictions to slow the cars they're damn near undrivable for some compared to an AWD car. Without pin spikes or waffles or some exotic foam tire compounds, the cars don't really hook up by most people's accounts. So in a nutshell... they're all different animals, and the last AWD full-scale late model (Jerry Inmon's old #D7 he drove for Dick Stephens) actually came to light long before the last mid-engine RWD late model (Charlie Swartz drove it for Ray Callahan of Bullitt Chassis, I think it was banned before it ever got to race). Both have existed, which is a point to keep in mind... only one saw the time of day competitively for any stretch, even if much like the Dominator... it spent more time broken than racing and eventually went away in favor of the cheaper and more practical solutions we have today.

I'm not dissing the alternatives... just stating the truths. I'm as fanatical about dirt oval as it comes... and nothing since the touring car has lit my fire this much to want to be a part of RC. My adage was always... if I can't get an affordable and enticing way into the sport, then I want to spend my $ on something that's got realism (like a Moody sprint or the KRP Late Model I have) vs. a road going carbon fiber and lexan land rocket on wheels. I've got people from the online racing world I'm buds with enamored by the touring cars because they think of all that we've done in NASCAR Heat and DTR/DTR2 and imagine what it'd be like to letter up something they can hold, something that like Anth2c's impeccable Heat model... is modern, fresh, exciting. The touring car is truly dirt oval's trojan horse into a second coming of the glory days. It's just a matter of extending and embracing, promoting and polishing the image these cars can bring to the plate. Then keeping enough rules and regulations (and ultimately keeping products going for the cars to keep interests high) on the cars to prevent from proverbially pissing it all away by driving the costs of competition through the roof.

Whatever happened to the proposed new late model molds that were talked about a long time ago from CW?

Probably sitting next to the Custom Works Midget and Custom Works Supermodified that Jerry spoke of eons ago. I have to admit, I am as ripe with anticipation over the touring car body as I am the midget itself, and long to see both hit the market. The Supermod is interesting in a sense... but I think it'd be something that would have less of a potential market than the midget and touring bodies would. Supermods are like Dominators... quite a few of heard of them, but only a small percentage of people have actually seen one run in anger, and they're becoming fewer and further between on a national level because they're just too darn expensive. An inexpensive RC super modified is intriguing... but... it's out of scope of what the cars really are, and there's still that small fanbase and smaller market factors to tie in to it all. I think it was more of a pet project of Jerry's out of his fascination for the cars than anything. How much of that would fly in Tony's ownership... remains to be seen. He's definitely a "racing guy", but how much of a business sense would step in is a good question.

I've expected the midget to be shown on the boards here lonnnnnnnng before now, and so far it seems like it's going to be further a wait because there's nary a burp from the Custom Works people about this car anymore. The sad deal is... a Custom Works LM body for a touring car, you would think, would logically come after new late model and EDM bodies for their recently released GBX and GSX Intimidator kits I would figure. If it's taking them this long on new bodies for the GBX and GSX bodies, I wouldn't hold my breath on the touring cars bodies showing up anytime soon, sadly. For a company that's keeping the sport going as some have said... they're dragging their feet in a lot of ways too. Granted it's a small company in a niche part of the world of hobbies stemming from a small niche-sized segment of motorsports, but it has a man with a tremendous amount of $, power, grassroots racing pedigree, and resources behind them to make big things happen. They're in a position of luxury more than most of the RC dirt oval sport has the privelage of. Yet they've not really released a modern body range for the non-sprint class cars in over 10 years.... McAllister and Factory Works have made how many? Even companies like Bolink (R.I.P.) and Parma have shipped more modern dirt oval bodies since then and dirtoval is/was but a small fraction of their businesses. It's pretty startling when you think about it.

I really think McAllister Racing is the one's, of those left standing from the early years, that helped create the sport and helped keep it alive for as much as they could. They're the one's that have kept it going today in a resurgence of vision and wisdom. They're the one's that are bringing the return of the economical vision of RC dirt oval back to life, in the hallmark of the early days of what made RC Dirt Oval the great sport it once was. It's people like them and the Daryl Lane's of today and the various enterprising local modified bodymakers and backyard chassis builders on these boards that I think are going to make this hobby thrive once again. They're very much in the spirit of the early JG and McAllister dirt oval and lowering kits that helped make something out of nothing that had ever been envisioned before. Much as the Klein's and Outfront Frames, et al. are the modern RCRC and Big Boy Toys sprints of this era. Competition is good. Economical competition via well thought out rules and regulations is that much better for the growth and comraderie it brings through more faces and places to race, more 4-wheeled weapons to wield. I want to see all parties continue on... rather than the better mousetrap syndrome drive any single person or company out of the sport again, rather than the costs keep a lot of those with fascinations on the sidelines looking in. To get bigger, better... you need to bring everyone with you, not push anyone aside because of inability to afford to be here. I look forward to seeing what the touring car could become... if given the proper shake. I definitely don't think I'm alone.

[Animal]

If you had asked me if I'd have anyone say that 2-3 years ago on here, I'd have told you you were crazy. LoL I'm still sort of in disbelief that I'm seeing someone say anything like that.



Agreed. But beyond that... you have the reality deal to cope with. Wedge cars died in full scale. I mean DEAD. There are a few exhibition events run, but even the biggest attempt to date to make a big show for the cars in Tennessee with a big purse was a bust. Most fans went for the novelty of it, but the general concensus was... the racing with the regular "modern" late models of today was better. There was even an article in National Dirt Digest written by Brian McLeod that spelled it out clear as a bell. Too much speed, too much grip, no slowing down to provide an overtaking moment (I call this the Dave Despain Wind Tunnel theory) on the track. It was like the dirt oval version of what Formula One has become. Yes the cars are badfast, the technology wicked, but is there anything remotely entertaining about them besides the sheer speed and ingenuity? We're not talking about a winged sprint car that is tossable. We're talking about a super long, super wide, super tall skyscraper on wheels. The wedge cars are faster than sprints... but they're not as exciting. Even there... give me USAC or BMARA or some non-winged series any day. Beyond the novelties... real racing is better without wings.

NoRightTurn from 4m.net who also went by I believe, aegrimonia or something like that on here on Dirtoval.com lived in the last area where Wedge cars were prevalent. That was until 2005. They're now officially dead at Williamette, Oregon replaced by the modern East Coast LM with series' like the Budweiser I-5 Championship and the Colorado Racing Association luring these guys in. That's before you count that more and more of the West coast boys are coming East to see what the fuss of this Knoxville Lucas Oil Nationals and the Dream and World 100 are all about. You can't do them with a wedge car, they're illegal.

There are those that get a twinkle in their eye over what these cars could do. They truly were a spectacle to see, much like the Dominator and SRP-1 are to those who've seen them. What remains though is that while they are waycool, and they do have their shored up place in full-scale and RC dirt oval history, and they do things that no other car can and likely will never repeat... there's too few of them anymore and too few willing to bust them out and run them again (killing their pocketbook) to make it a viable class. So while they were Dominators... they're now Extinct-in-ators largely because their time has come and gone. Wicked though they were and still are... so was the Tyrannosaurus Rexx. It's not nearly as popular a creature anymore either in today's realm of things. The similarities are quite startling if you think about it.



Yeah, and that's before you come down to the costs. You're talking a car that costs almost $600 out of the box just for a roller. A car that lives for downforce and loves the fastest motors and juiciest batteries you can plug into them. A car that has such tremendous cornering speed that if and when you collide with something, you're going to be out there with the corner marshall picking up parts. That's not to say that the cars aren't stout or built well... that's to say that even the stoutest car under this amount of speed is going to be brutal in an impact. You're basically talking of a money pit on wheels.

A lot of people have seen me make commentaries with regards to Custom Works and the other scratch built cars. The reason i do and have, isn't because they don't make a fine car... it's because they've outreached the scope and intents of the userbase and especially the "POTENTIAL" userbase typically and that's why the sport has been stuck in a rut IMHO. I don't see them keeping the sport alive, I see them keeping the current wave of the sport on life support and in many ways... preventing more economical outlets to take off through staunch inabilities for some people to let go of their conceptions of what a dirt oval car is and should be. I keep hearing the words "Heyday" and "Custom Works, Superior Racing Products, C&M Mfg Nemesis, Trinity Reflex-10., Kyosho Slingshot, etc. etc." and the reality is... that wasn't the truth. The truth was...

Remember all of the JG Mfg. conversion kits for RC10's? Remember all of the RCRC Ascot Sprints and Big Boy Toys Sprint cars? Remember the McAllister lowering kits for RC10's? Remember Advance Chevrons? That to me was the heyday of the sport... because it brought people in en masse because it was cheap and easy to throw together a competitive dirt oval car and go racing. You bought a $100 add-on kit for a $150 RC10 threw on a $20 body and went racing with the radios and electrics you had. It made the market that caused the purpose-built and extremely expensive kits to take over because there was a base of people big enough to warrant building one of these cars for. The "better mouse trap" that in the right hands would run rings around even the most innovative cobbled together buggy-based rockets people put together. I mean... hell... Trinity and Kyosho, both mainstream RC companies... hell one is even Japanese!! A country where dirt oval goes together with... nothing in their culture!!! They both built dirt oval kits for a time because the market was potentially hot enough for it. Do you see that today?!?

If you didn't have one... you were left to either getting one, or getting out of the sport. There was a potential to custom engineer something to blow away what was already out there and already serving the people well, a better mouse trap that cost a lot more, made everything prior almost obsolete without going back to the drawing board and spending some cash, and basically pushed a lot of people out of the sport due to costs. Some were more gradual than others, but the sport all but died as a result of that whole situation. Worse yet... it kept a lot of people on the outside looking in that loved dirt oval racing and wanted to be a part, but couldn't sensibly see themselves spending $450 or more to get in with something that dynamically wasn't any more realistic than what the old RC10's with lowering kits were. Faster yes... but speed isn't everything.

The lack of interest by the media? Simple. People looked at the sport, drooled, went ga-ga, saw the pricetags, and fled like a scalded cat. I've shown people the cars, their interest peaked, then showed 'em the pricetag and witnessed the "HOLY %^#@!" myself enough times to know the truth. Most of the mainstream products within the RC hobby are relatively cheap. Touring cars, despite having boatloads of available hop-up parts (that you can buy gradually), are relatively inexpensive compared to the cheapest purpose-built dirt oval kits. Even the Factory Team TC3 with all of it's bells and whistles undercuts the Intimidator and Enforcer brand new, much less the more mechanically similar (i.e. AWD) Dominator. Most people that were in RC back in the day consider 4WD buggies and car kits like the BMW's or Cadillacs and Mercedes Benz of the hobby, so AWD for that cheap is amazing to them. Buggies... are downright dirt cheap, and work great within racing environments or for backyard bashing, either/or. The most expensive cars that take off... monster trucks... and they just have an allure of their own because of the sheer size. Yet most of us could buy a TMAXX or one of the competitors for less than a Dominator. Price them. You'll see what I mean. Funny thing on the media... Radio Control Car Action, the most entrenched and subscribed to magazine of them all, *FINALLY* did some dirt oval coverage after all of the bad-mouthing and angst of the fanbase here. Funny that the touring car should sit front and center with the other 2? I think someone gets it... someone that deep down might've been pulled through the ringer time and again by people in our sport (yours truly included), but someone that can see what the sport was, what it became, and what it could truly be again. I think that, that touring car is the centerfold of a trio that they saw as the second coming, and that is ultimately why they published it.

There's little cheap about this sport. Little that is identifiable with the real full-scale sport, little that until people like Gary McAllister (ironic, don't you think? ;)) and Daryl Lane (and Bolink and Parma to an extent) brought out new bodies... little that was "modern" and fresh without work to make it just that. You need that scale correlation to draw fans of the real sport in. A lot of the RC dirt oval guys love the full-scale sport, but a lot of them may not hardly trek to a full scale track at all or care who half of the real racers are or know much of anything about the cars. You can look on 4m.net and other places and see fans going rabid over the full-scale sport, knowing the intricacies, down to the different suspensions and chassis', and in much larger #'s than you'd probably expect even for something that is still but a small piece of the overall motorsports piechart. Many of which carry it into a passion for online racing with their computer. Many who carry this passion into collection of static-model diecast replicas of the real cars. Why can't RC draw these people in?

Costs.

It's as simple as that. The cheap cars at the RC dirt oval tracks don't typically draw any interest to your diehard late model and modified and sprint car fans. The cars they are enamored by... cost you $450 or more just for the kit. That's not counting radios, receivers, servos, speed controls, battery packs, engines, motors, chargers, starter boxes, fuel, tires, tools, etc. etc. for whichever path you elect to travel. It's part of why you don't see an RC street stock class taking off. How many full scale tracks do you go to where the grandstands aren't practically empty after the late model and economy modified features or big block modified or sprint and midget and Silver Crown features are over? Fans flock to see the top classes, they drool over the top classes and the speed and competitive side by side racing they provide. I watch a lot of street stock and modified and hornet and other class of cars run, and I get enjoyment... but the mass of the sport doesn't. A Truck class, while economical, while having it's fanbase in RC, while being available in large numbers... just isn't going to suit these people. There's little you can do to a truck that's not going to make it look like a truck with <body style here> sitting on top of it. A touring car with a late model body or econo mod body on it... doesn't look so much like a touring car anymore. It looks like a late model or econo mod. It becomes one visually and at the cost of $20-40 of lexan. Trucks just don't do that no matter how you slice it. It's a great class, don't get me wrong, much as the classic coupes are... but without that correlation, your fanbase is typically going to glaze over and go onto something else.

Touring cars change all of this. They're economical. They're practical. You get a lot for the $, and can buy one "new" and not have to trust someone else on a used product that could be missing pieces for a reasonable price, or take your chances on eBay and walk away with a stellar car for peanuts because of the supply/demand factor. They can be adaptable, morphing into other types of cars exceptionally well with a simple body change. They can be run without aero aids and handle well because of the drivelines they have. You don't really have to do a lot to make them a raceable option, and with proper rules you might not have to do much of anything other than do a body swap and a change of tires and go racing. You can make them identifiable to the real *CURRENT* cars via a plethora of well-designed bodies that are out there. That correlation, that affordability... it's what makes them a gem. They truly are the golden goose that's laying golden eggs left and right. The sad deal is... I'm not sure if a lot of people in this sport truly get that. The truists are scared of change and skeptical in a lot of ways... and the fact that the DODC Tour doesn't have them in their ranks from my best recollection (correct me if I'm wrong Craig or someone?)... only seeks to hurt the great potentials this class has to blow things wide open for the sport.

I hear the reasons why they're not adopted more and I chuckle. "Well they're AWD, the real cars aren't" Okay... well the real cars aren't mid or rear motor/engine, they're not powered by 7 sub-C cell batteries or nitro-methane racing fuel. They don't run 2 strokes in the real cars. The real cars don't use independant rear suspensions. The real cars use stagger which few if any of the RC cars do anymore. The fact is... dynamically, the RWD cars in RC aren't anymore close to the real cars than an AWD touring car. Without aero aids or hardcore motor/battery restrictions to slow the cars they're damn near undrivable for some compared to an AWD car. Without pin spikes or waffles or some exotic foam tire compounds, the cars don't really hook up by most people's accounts. So in a nutshell... they're all different animals, and the last AWD full-scale late model (Jerry Inmon's old #D7 he drove for Dick Stephens) actually came to light long before the last mid-engine RWD late model (Charlie Swartz drove it for Ray Callahan of Bullitt Chassis, I think it was banned before it ever got to race). Both have existed, which is a point to keep in mind... only one saw the time of day competitively for any stretch, even if much like the Dominator... it spent more time broken than racing and eventually went away in favor of the cheaper and more practical solutions we have today.

I'm not dissing the alternatives... just stating the truths. I'm as fanatical about dirt oval as it comes... and nothing since the touring car has lit my fire this much to want to be a part of RC. My adage was always... if I can't get an affordable and enticing way into the sport, then I want to spend my $ on something that's got realism (like a Moody sprint or the KRP Late Model I have) vs. a road going carbon fiber and lexan land rocket on wheels. I've got people from the online racing world I'm buds with enamored by the touring cars because they think of all that we've done in NASCAR Heat and DTR/DTR2 and imagine what it'd be like to letter up something they can hold, something that like Anth2c's impeccable Heat model... is modern, fresh, exciting. The touring car is truly dirt oval's trojan horse into a second coming of the glory days. It's just a matter of extending and embracing, promoting and polishing the image these cars can bring to the plate. Then keeping enough rules and regulations (and ultimately keeping products going for the cars to keep interests high) on the cars to prevent from proverbially pissing it all away by driving the costs of competition through the roof.



Probably sitting next to the Custom Works Midget and Custom Works Supermodified that Jerry spoke of eons ago. I have to admit, I am as ripe with anticipation over the touring car body as I am the midget itself, and long to see both hit the market. The Supermod is interesting in a sense... but I think it'd be something that would have less of a potential market than the midget and touring bodies would. Supermods are like Dominators... quite a few of heard of them, but only a small percentage of people have actually seen one run in anger, and they're becoming fewer and further between on a national level because they're just too darn expensive. An inexpensive RC super modified is intriguing... but... it's out of scope of what the cars really are, and there's still that small fanbase and smaller market factors to tie in to it all. I think it was more of a pet project of Jerry's out of his fascination for the cars than anything. How much of that would fly in Tony's ownership... remains to be seen. He's definitely a "racing guy", but how much of a business sense would step in is a good question.

I've expected the midget to be shown on the boards here lonnnnnnnng before now, and so far it seems like it's going to be further a wait because there's nary a burp from the Custom Works people about this car anymore. The sad deal is... a Custom Works LM body for a touring car, you would think, would logically come after new late model and EDM bodies for their recently released GBX and GSX Intimidator kits I would figure. If it's taking them this long on new bodies for the GBX and GSX bodies, I wouldn't hold my breath on the touring cars bodies showing up anytime soon, sadly. For a company that's keeping the sport going as some have said... they're dragging their feet in a lot of ways too. Granted it's a small company in a niche part of the world of hobbies stemming from a small niche-sized segment of motorsports, but it has a man with a tremendous amount of $, power, grassroots racing pedigree, and resources behind them to make big things happen. They're in a position of luxury more than most of the RC dirt oval sport has the privelage of. Yet they've not really released a modern body range for the non-sprint class cars in over 10 years.... McAllister and Factory Works have made how many? Even companies like Bolink (R.I.P.) and Parma have shipped more modern dirt oval bodies since then and dirtoval is/was but a small fraction of their businesses. It's pretty startling when you think about it.

I really think McAllister Racing is the one's, of those left standing from the early years, that helped create the sport and helped keep it alive for as much as they could. They're the one's that have kept it going today in a resurgence of vision and wisdom. They're the one's that are bringing the return of the economical vision of RC dirt oval back to life, in the hallmark of the early days of what made RC Dirt Oval the great sport it once was. It's people like them and the Daryl Lane's of today and the various enterprising local modified bodymakers and backyard chassis builders on these boards that I think are going to make this hobby thrive once again. They're very much in the spirit of the early JG and McAllister dirt oval and lowering kits that helped make something out of nothing that had ever been envisioned before. Much as the Klein's and Outfront Frames, et al. are the modern RCRC and Big Boy Toys sprints of this era. Competition is good. Economical competition via well thought out rules and regulations is that much better for the growth and comraderie it brings through more faces and places to race, more 4-wheeled weapons to wield. I want to see all parties continue on... rather than the better mousetrap syndrome drive any single person or company out of the sport again, rather than the costs keep a lot of those with fascinations on the sidelines looking in. To get bigger, better... you need to bring everyone with you, not push anyone aside because of inability to afford to be here. I look forward to seeing what the touring car could become... if given the proper shake. I definitely don't think I'm alone.

whats the reason for this novel, which is way way way to long to read.

[Daryl Lane]

Hey Marcus



Keep voicing your opinions, and dust off your TC.


I believe with proper planning it "D.O." in time will come back to being big again. R/C took a big hit in the late 90's do to Play stations, Computer gaming and such. I think that has tapered off some and people are going back outside and getting involved in live again. So as long as the tracks keep pushing the novice and stepping stone classes "stock" the local car counts will go up.


Right now the big buzz in the dirt oval world is still on Gas truck racing, that is what most of the people are asking for. For the late model sedan class to grow we have to bring in the people that all ready own the cars, there is a D.O. racer base of thousands out there that just need to know there is a place to use what they already own.


You do not hear allot of the truck stuff that is going on around the country, on this forum because it is geared to sprint cars and the custom works part of dirt oval. Some are staring to put in more and more about trucks and this tread is great.


We do need some adhered to, national Touring car chassis and body rules, just to make it easier for racers to go from one track to another. Right now rules and classes are one part of R/C dirt oval that are vary much like real dirt oval, very area you go to has its own local classes and rules to suit the track owner or the racers racing there.

One thing that needs to be kept in focus is that R/C racing is based on the weekly club racing and club racers! Not on national races and national series, with raising costs for gas, food, etc. people will not be traveling to big races as much. We need to keep in mind that R/C is a hobby and not a big cash cow for anyone the way full scale racing has become. The bottom line is no one outside of the R/C world knows or cares who any of the R/C World Champions have been or are. Their faces are not on TV or on their kid’s cereal boxes, and no one outside the R/C world is looking to put any real money into the sport - hobby as an advertiser.

With that said, there is a lot of well run racing going on around the country, along with some great series, Dirt Oval is growing. THANKS TO ALL YOU TRACK AND HOBBY SHOP OWNERS WHO ARE DOING MORE AND MORE TO BACK R/C DIRT OVAL!! You guys are the front lines and doing well!!!

We just all need to remember it is about having fun, spending time with friends rubbing lexan on the track and doing some serious bench racing between rounds!

[Doug Carter]

whats the reason for this novel, which is way way way to long to read.

First of all, quoting the previous message just to harp on it was childish, and only adds to the overall length of the original post. Thanks for that.

Second, you complained about a post that was too long to read, and didn't even take the time to see if anything valuable was said in it. You didn't have a problem quoting it to make your point though. Nice. Take a few minutes to read it before making snide comments.

Yes, Marcus can be very long-winded, and he could have EASILY said what he did in about 3,000 less words, but he makes some great points. His post probably would have been better served outside of this discussion, as it really kind of roams around a bit.

Marcus, great points and comments, and more often than not, in line with how I feel about the state of DO racing right now. There are more than a few reasons why there is no TC/Late Model class in the DODC Nitro Series right now, mostly because of the lack of a real nitro base for the class. I don't think the DODC needs to bite off more than it can chew, and proactive classes are better left to the tracks around the country than to the tour. Personally, I am building a FT TC3 to race as a late model on clay, even though there is no class for them close to me. It's kind of a "build it and they will come" theory. We'll see.

The local TC electric classes still seem to be hung up on using touring cars with sedan bodies as opposed to the cool new late model bodies available. I don't understand this. It isn't an appealing class to touring car racers OR dirt oval guys. It may be a beginner's class in theory, but with all of the touring cars out there, it can be so much more.

Blame can be dished out to a lot of different places for the death and lack of growth in DO (no national rules base, tracks running classes they feel like, expensive kit costs, overperforming out-of-the-box supercars, lack of tracks, lack of magazine exposure, etc.), but to fail to recognize the importance of the TC car in the re-growth of DO could be a fatal mistake.

I would love to see a group of guys get together right here on the forums and build and create a specific set of rules for a touring car-based late model class, both electric and gas. There's no reason to not start the discussions for a nationally-based rules structure.


Why not?



:confused:

[bolognarc]

We have a TC class at our local dirt oval. Stock driveline ntc3 or any stock shaft drive tc. We use latemodel bodies (McCallister) with side wings. It's one of the most competitive classes & any racer could win on any given night because the cars are so close. It's relatively inexpensive & a very easy car to drive.

[93TA]

we run tc latemodels nitro and elec in our area at 4 different tracks, we have some rules laid out that could be used as a starting point if some people want to get together and create some solid rules.

[Doug Carter]

I'd like to see some general rules developed. The key is to get the tracks to create or structure the classes at their facilities strictly, so that guys could take their race cars to ANY track across the country and be able to race (with tire changes).

Limitations are tough on racers, like making it only so that shaft drive cars can race. It needs to be open to all TCs; belt, shaft or otherwise.

I think a new thread on this topic may be a good idea...



:D

[93TA]

i see no reason there should be any rules to limit it to shaft drive. most all the late mods here are shaft drive, but that is by choice not by rule.

[bolognarc]

Well after reading your correct we do allow belt drive cars but there not quite as maintenece free as a shaft car...I should have stated a RTR car but radios/servos can be swapped. It was designed as a fast & econmical class where the cars would be equal. I like your idea about established rules where you could take a car to any track & it be legal.

[lawtonlosi]

In OKC they run Mod and 19t latemodels. Any chassis, with latemodel body, sidedahm, and the tires depend on the class. 19t is seen as a stepping stone class, and they use the hpi rally tire as the spec tire. The motor is limited to 19t arm in any can (I believe, if im mistaken please let me know). The mod class is open to mod and brushless and can use either the hpi rally , or gravel tire. The racing is pretty close, and the turnout keeps growing. Yeah the TC3 type chassis is the most popular. But there are people running pro4's, xxxs, and probably other types of chassis'. It seems the best thing to do is keep the rules cheap and simple, and the more growth and fun will be had. In the DFW area they are working on a nitro latemodel class and have developed / borrow a set of rules that keeps the cars pretty well stock, an not overpowered.

[Doug Carter]

I started a new thread with some ideas jotted down to start. It's so simple, it HAS to work.

[RCB3]

DrOlds- I'm going to bring out a Dominator soon and also my "Blue Streak" that I used to race at Fastlane. I don't plan on putting a sidedam on the Dom, unless it needs it.

[daveb46124]

I raced mine last night on a 65x 35 oval carpet against TC's I wasnt to far off and was turnin the same lap times, and they were all running brushless, so i would take the dom anytime


David

[Greg S]

I wish they would start producing them again. Saw them run but never owned one.
With todays batteries and motors look out!!!

[Brad Ferks]

Wow, I thought this thread died a long time ago. :confused:
.

[wfw94]

I wish they would start producing them again. Saw them run but never owned one.
With todays batteries and motors look out!!!
Greg , they are available used all the time, update chassis with one from www.xtremercracing.com (http://www.xtremercracing.com). and you will like it. Alot.

[Greg S]

There are only a couple of people in my area thats has a dominator, we don't have any electric cars all nitro, But i would love to see a Dominator with 7C and a 7 single run against the NTC3's:tire:

[wfw94]

There are only a couple of people in my area thats has a dominator, we don't have any electric cars all nitro, But i would love to see a Dominator with 7C and a 7 single run against the NTC3's:tire:
How about a 4.5 brushless with 6 cell 4000s, you don't need more than that , take my word for it.

[Brad Ferks]

7 cells with a 7 single sounds like a great way to light up the wheels down the whole straight. Course that us a good indicator that you have just about enough power. Now on asphalt, or with silicones you could put that kind of power to the ground, but that is a thought that lives in the past